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Anyone installed a pole in a place with aluminium ceiling joists?
Got a workman round today to do stud finding for me as my stud finder was giving weird readings. He said he thought the ceiling of our (rented, ground floor) place had aluminium ceiling joists which weren’t very strong: he was humming and ha-ing about whether a spreader plate/tension mounted removable pole would push up and buckle aluminium joist and thought drilling in to attach a small permanent mount (like a Lil Mynx) would be safer.
So thought I’d ask if
A) he was being unduly pessimistic about the chance of an xpole xpert damaging the ceiling
B) if anyone had experience of installing a pole in a place with aluminium joists.Thanks v much.
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16 Replies
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What you should do is get a magnetic stud finder. They are relatively cheap and need no batteries like this one: http://www.amazon.com/Johnson-Level-Tool-160-Finder/dp/B00004T808
Then use it to map out the joists which should be equally spaced. If you can’t do that then it might have been a problem with the stud finder he used or its wood studs with metal hangers.
To mount a Lil Mynx or any screw or bolt mounted pole, you will need to use toggle bolts similar to this: http://www.amazon.com/Toggle-Plated-Finish-Slotted-Threads/dp/B00DD50JTG
Make sure you use the exact drill bit specified with the toggle bolts.
If they are metal joists they will look like this: http://www.spec-net.com.au/press/0809/images/sbp050809_img01.jpg
Notice these are angled metal and a lot are boxed in but hollow. Either way you can see why you need toggle bolts. Some metal joists are not great for friction poles as they flex a bit. -
First, aluminum is not magnetic so this stud finder would not work. Second, aluminum is expensive and is not used for building, it is galvanized steel. Third, if your handyman does not know the difference you need a new handy man.
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I agree it is not aluminum which is why a magnetic stud finder WILL work. I used to have a finished garage with steel joists that had to support some fitness equipment.
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Last thoughts, if you are on the ground floor and there are floors above you the same concept holds true, if it is not strong enough to hold a pole in place there is no way it would be strong enough to bear weight on a floor above you (refrigerator anyone??)
Typically you can look at a ceiling and see where the seams are. That is where you should start looking first for studs. Any regular stud finder is going to work as it is basically like a little depth finder….different densities is what makes it go off (in essence and simple terms). Magnetic stud finders only find screws or nails that are used to hold the sheetrock in place. If you have a magnetic stud finder but don’t have a sheetrock style ceiling, or any other ceiling that is fastened in place using metal, you will not get readings as it is just a magnet.
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If you read the description for the magnetic stud finder I gave the link for it states: “The level has a built-in stud finder for locating metal studs.”
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Thanks v much for replies. He used an electronic stud finder and we located three joists all running 16 inches apart. We also did the knock/tap rest. We marked them with pencil and he suggested using a small nail or smallest possible drill bit to check when installing.
He knows zip about pole installation and I said I wanted to install a vertical bar / piece of exercise equipment that used either a spreader plate to hold in place and was removable and tension mounted, or had a small permanent attachment the size of a plant hook to screw into.
I was a bit confused by his musings on ‘new build aluminium joists’ as I thought well, our ceiling is our neighbours floor and it must be strong enough to support that! And aluminium is soft – why would it be used in joists? Maybe he meant metal (as opposed to wood/rCJ) and he was worried about it flexing with a spreader plate braced up and pushing against it?
But I should have thought x- poles were used in thousands of new build homes with these kind of steel joists?
I would rather not drill in as we rent – but I don’t want to trash the ceiling either! The place we are in is about a dozen years old or less.
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Aluminum is very strong and lightweight. Most of a commercial airplane including wings & fuselage is aluminum. It is used in buildings but usually commercial buildings. Its much more expensive than most types of steel so rarely used in residential except for joist hangers.
Steel joists are relatively thin metal but are strong because of the angles, boxed (4-sided) joists being stronger than 3-sided (c-channel) like in the pic I posted. The problem with any type of metal stud is while they can be used to support a structural system using triangulation, a small area of the stud (joist) will have very little load capacity whether lateral or, for supporting a pole an axial load. [OK. I admit I am a nerd who likes books on science & physics. But a nerd who likes pole dancing.]
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Thanks v much for that. I can see why small area of high-intensity stress could cause too much pressure (damage to wood floors from stilettos comes to mind).
Aren’t steel joints quite common though? I can’t believe x pole has survived endless disgruntled householders with trashed ceilings and minimal publicity all these years.
Also surely the stress on a small area of a slim steel joist of a pole bolted in instead of tension-braced is about the same (bit vague about physics so possibly completely wrong here)
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Joist not joint damn you Iphone
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Most houses (guessing over 95%) are wood joists. Wood is actually much stronger especially with those lateral & axial loads and less expensive.
Now if you look at a pole, it is strong enough to support us pulling on it and (maybe not me) doing some fantastic moves with maybe a little flexing at most. But if you took a hammer and put a dent in one spot, you will probably find the next time you do a fireman’s spin it will bend like its made of cardboard. The top of the pole should be under compression therefore applying pressure to the ceiling joist. When you perform a move then the pole will be under tension and you see it flex. If you have a dent then the pressure is no longer equal from top to bottom through the pole and it buckles.
Physics is important to pole design, installation and even moves. When I first started poling we purchased our poles from plumbing supply houses 🙂 One thing you learn quickly (someone told me fortunately) is not to buy pipe with a seam as its like having a dent. Needed to buy seamless pipe.
Want to know why you are having trouble with that invert? Probably physics has some part in it. -
So if I have metal joists I should definitely not use a tension pole?
Because any up-pressure into the flexing joist and it’s game over?
In which case, a Veena/Mynx or PS looks best bet – am assuming drilling a ceiling mount into a metal joist is less likely to cause up-flex than bracing against a joist?
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My concern with a normal tension pole is that they should be fine if you keep it tightened and re-check regularly. With my wood ceiling joist I have gone six months without needing or being able to tighten my pole any further.
The way (back to physics) a ceiling joist works is the top edge is under compression and the bottom side is under tension throughout the length. Physicists’ favorite example is drive across a bridge and your car pushes down (compression) on the surface of the bridge but the underside of the bridge is pulling apart (tension). When you are applying pressure from a pole you are compressing from underneath. How does that effect the joist and the structural or truss system which helps to distribute the load from above it?
For metal there can be several issues. What area the load from the top of the friction pole is distributed. Potentially if a load is under a small area part of the joist could bend. We are probably talking like 1/50th of an inch or half a mm metal thickness. Remember the strength in metal joists comes from the angles. A Lil Mynx if you could use a toggle bolt instead of their supplied screw will have a small area of load but it will be pulling from the toggle side and pushing from underneath which seems more stable.
I am not a structural engineer. Just have always been interested and studied science and physics. Be surprised what you can apply stuff to. From cooking to music to cars to computers.Before you go any further I think you need to substantiate whether it is really a metal joist or wood. A magnetic stud finder would be better for this but check carefully. They react to nails & screws also but as you move along the length you will see the difference if its wood. They are usually cheap even seen them at dollar (or whatever is your currency) stores. If needed you could use a thin nail and push through to the stud. You will either hear the metal or feel the nail sinking into wood. Do not use a hammer! If its metal joist it will be so thin you could drive a nail through it!
Whether its wood or metal, if its sheetrock then its not that hard to fix when you move out whatever minimal damage any pole will do. As long as you don’t cause a structural issue a hole in a joist whether wood or metal will not matter. -
Webjunk, I was not saying that with the galvanized you could not use that stud finder, I was explaining that type is not always going to work if you don’t have any metal in your ceiling. In wood construction it works by finding the nails.
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Chem. That is exactly why she should use a magnetic stud finder. That may be the only way to find out if she has metal studs or identify other issues like improperly attached sheetrock which will make an electronic stud finder give weird readings. With metal studs installation changes as do safety concerns so its good to err on the side of safety.
Last week I searched old discussions on here and found numerous people with pole failures (some that hurt themselves) caused by incorrect installation or not actually under a stud. I was brought up to put people’s safety before everything else. Is there really a substitute for being safe when mounting a pole correctly?
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TropicalPole, how is your x-pole doing on the metal joist? I also will move into a condo with metal studs in the celing, my husband has the same concern like your workman. I currently live in a wood frame house and use an x-pole.
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