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Is this really “Constructive” Critisism?
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I totally agree that not all moves are suitable for all students. It is important for both student and teachers to be realistic and what may seem harsh to one person my not to another.
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Amy – thanks for the welcome. I’ve actually been a member of Veena for quite some time now. I just tend to be what most would consider a “lurker” rather than an active poster.
Let me first just say that I agree the comment the sub made wasn’t necessary when we are given ALL the facts, including that it was a callous issue. That, however, was not presented in the original post. The omission of those facts seem to imply that the poster was actually just asking if the “thick thighs” statement was acceptable at all…
That being said I’d like to address the “thick thighs”. The word thick is an adjective – a describing word. It is not a derogatory term by definition. Those aren’t society’s terms… Society only attempts to determine what the acceptable or not acceptable levels of these are when referring to our bodies. How else would you describe thick thighs or thin thighs? You need adjectives to differentiate between the two and I can’t think of two less offensive words for either. Why does being told someone has thick thighs have to be offensive? I bet I’d be hard pressed finding a man who was offended being told he had a thick penis…. (men on this forum – please interject if I’m off base here) Words only have the power we give them.
Personally, my thick thighs aren’t going anywhere. They have been passed down generation to generation of women in my family. What else am I supposed to call them?
Is it wrong for an instructor to tell me that because of my thicker thighs that I need to learn just-the-right-amount of spread to slide to get into that superman or for that same instructor to tell another student that because of her thin thighs she needs to grip the pole tighter so she doesn’t slide right down?
I don’t think so – and I also think if it had been a thin thigh comment…. It wouldn’t have even been noticed enough to become the topic of this thread.
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Along the line of what ChicagoPoler said, thick thighs do not mean someone is fat. When I was super thin (and people said I was wasting away) I STILL had thighs that were on the large side. It's part of my genes to have christmas hams for thighs. It doesn't bother me anymore (and my man loves them!)
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in the context of a larger conversation about weight, and size, and self perception, i think this thread is awesome!
chicagopoler, i think that thick and thin are comparative words. they don't mean anything without a benchmark, and my question would be what is the benchmark? is it "average"? thick to someone who is haitian who thinks of weight as an indicator of wealth, versus an american, is very different! thick and thin are definitely adjectives but i believe that to use them in reference to describing someone else puts the speaker's values into the equation. i dont think that thick or thin are inherently offensive words, but depending on where someone has come from, and what values they carry, those words can be heavy. so yes, words have the power we give them… as a listener, and as a speaker, and you can never be in both roles at the same time or understand exactly how those words might make someone feel. you can call your thighs whatever you want, because they're yours. some peopel even feel that when they use words that are negative, that it can be a way to take power away from the words.
i will say that i have been told that i'm skinny, and it was offensive to me. i've also been told that i need to gain weight, that i couldn't psosibly be over 100 lbs (when i'm well over that!) and i foudn that offensive as well. i've had classmates tell me that things are easy for me because "you're so light". i've seen people be surprsied at what i eat, and how i eat, and i think it's amazing how many judgments people pass without realizing it. i've had a student tell me that her last instructor told her that her legs were "too skinny" to grip the pole to climb, and she was hurt by that and discouraged. so yes, it does absolutely go both ways. in her case, her instructor failed to look past the snap judgment of what width her legs were, and see how her technique could be modified to allow her to climb (she also needed lotion, because her legs were dry as paper, but her instructor didn't bother to look at that either…).
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There are many variables…..we can come up with tons of "ifs" or even very real scenarios if you're just interested in arguing a diferent way.
BUT…..what if the ONLY reason really was that she had larger/more shapely/bigger/curvier/thicker thighs????
So that is THE ONLY REASON a person cannot get a move. We are not going to presume that the teacher is wrong, insensitive or just plain rude….maybe, in some cases, the instructor just might be right on target.
What does she do then? You MIGHT have to address it at some point.
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What are some examples, please? This is a very interesting discussion…
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Examples of what? Is that question directed to me or another post?
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Amy said—–i will say that i have been told that i’m skinny, and it was offensive to me. i’ve also been told that i need to gain weight, that i couldn’t psosibly be over 100 lbs (when i’m well over that!) and i foudn that offensive as well. i’ve had classmates tell me that things are easy for me because “you’re so light”. i’ve seen people be surprsied at what i eat, and how i eat, and i think it’s amazing how many judgments people pass without realizing it.—–
Amy, I can understand how these kinds of statements can be hurtful. However, I don’t believe it’s what we are talking about. These statements weren’t being used to try try help you. I am trying to stick to an instructor making an attempt at explaining to a student a possible reason for difficulty with a move.
If I am am having trouble with superman (which I do) and it is clearly nothing other than learning to maneuver my thicker thighs in a different way (which it is) what would you tell me?
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If I were 100% positive that was the real reason, I would tell her, “it looks like you’re struggling. Here try to position the pole a little higher on the back of your thigh, so you have a little more room to rotate over. Keep practicing your advance apprentice hold until until you get the feel that the pole is just in the right place and you have enough room. Try practicing with 1 foot on the ground. You’re doing great! Not everyone gets this move right off the bat.” I wouldn’t mention the size of her thighs. That is too personal for some people.
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BUT…the problem isn't the placement of her leg. It's the size of her thigh. Who said that she needed the pole higher on the back of her thigh?
This isnt the scnenario I suggested. My question was if she is doing the move correctly and the ONLY thing preventing her from getting the move is that her thigh is too large to thread through.
Isn't it worse to mislead someone and repeatedly tell them keep practicing when the REAL issue continues to be ignored?
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Chicago– yes, those statements i listed weren't used to try to help, but i dont believe that explaining a move should use a vocabulary that can be construed as hurtful. people sometimes think they are being helpful… but they aren't.
with the particular combo in the original post (apprentice to superman), i listed a bunch of things that i would ask the student to try a few posts up– usually i would teach all those steps to the entire class, because my classes are mixed level and not everyone is ready for the full combo.
i also try to show different entries and exits (time allowing) to the whole class (although just to one or two people if things are crazy), because i know not all my students gravitate towards the same moves and it helps to know different ways to navigate yourself around the poel. and if all of those didn't work, and you were getting really frustrated, you would get a pep talk, and i would tell you that not every combo or trick is right for every person, and how lucky we are to have so many awesome, different ones to try, and that if pole was easy and tricks were all nail-able on first try, there wouldn't be any fun in it (i have blogs upon blogs about all this, so i'll try not to bore you with all that here). you could also work the fundamentals of the precursor moves instead and maybe try a different move to use as an exit. am i answering your question?
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How can I say this more succinctly?
the student is strong
the student is flexible
the student is skilled enough to do the move
the student can do both the apprentice and the superman perfectly
the student can do all the preliminary moves
the student WANTS this move…is insistent she wants to figure out how to get it.Her thighs are the only problem because she cannot feed her leg through.
What do you say?
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This move is not impossible if you have thick thighs, it’s just not. I have seen it done. If a move completely impossible and the girl has no hope of ever getting this move, I wouldn’t tell her her thighs are too big for it. I would just say, “maybe you’re not ready for this move so let’s try this move instead.” I wouldn’t say in so may words, “don’t even bother trying this move. You’re too fat for it”. There has got to be a better way to say things.
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It CAN be impossible if you have TOO thick thighs…not "just thick" …but TOO thick.
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Quote: Examples of what? Is that question directed to me or another post?
Yes, I was wondering what moves a student couldn't do because of thighs. I am a new teacher and this would be helpful to know.
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