Pole Dance Competitions for Plus size dancers

Charley started this discussion · 1/24/2014

Hi everybody! As I am making plans for another great Pole Festival and good friend of mine and I were talking about competitions in general and she had suggested that she would be interested in competing in a division that was specifically for plus size dancers. First off, I believe that this is an amazing idea and I know that Roz Mays has done this very successfully in NYC. I am reaching out to the amazing community here to hear your feedback. Do you think that this is something that is necessary? Would this addition create more opportunity for performers/competitors? And finally, I would love to hear from my plus size friends on this, does it matter to you if the organizer of said competition is NOT plus size? Do you believe that a smaller person would not have the knowledge or understanding to create a fair competition like this? Would you as a plus size dancer find it insulting? Or is this something you would like? I would love to hear everyone's thoughts about this. In my hear of hearts - I adore this idea because pole is for EVERYBODY and I am interested in creating as much opportunity as possible in a safe and loving environment.

37 replies

polergirl · 1/24/2014
It might create more opportunity ... but how would "plus-size" be determined? I feel like having competitions that are specific as to body type/size could lead to problems. Maybe not but that's my gut reaction. I heartily believe that pole is for everyone, and I have concerns that the competition mentality (which seems to be growing every day) can be harmful to "everyday" dancers who aren't able to train like elite athletes and who simply may not have the genetics necessary to have a competitive poler's physique. I include myself in the everyday group for sure. There are very thin people who have difficulty putting on weight and gaining muscle, and not-thin people who have difficulty taking weight off and gaining muscle. If we look to current competitive polers and competitions as the benchmarks for what we as pole dancers "should" be we are hurting ourselves tremendously....in my opinion, anyway.
KristaCNH · 1/24/2014
Sometimes I've wished for a category that requires you to be at least an *average* sized human being : ) It's much harder for a 5'8" 130 pound person to throw herself around a pole than a 4'10 85 pound person... the body types we typically see winning lots of competitions. If you don't believe me open a physics book!
Charley · 1/24/2014
Polergirl, this was my thought too as I don't know what is plus size or not. I know extremely in shape women that are curvy that fall into the "plus size" border. To play devils advocate here: I think competitors can be very positive and can be done in a loving environment. I also believe to survive any competitive field you have to have a strong inside. I like the range of competitions today for the most part because we are seeing more inclusion like at PSO, Midwest, Florida pole championships, etc. I believe competition is not for everyone and it takes a very healthy prison mentally to do it.
lolorashel · 1/24/2014
Just for transparency, I am actually working with Roz to bring Dangerous Curves to the West Coast later this summer... That being said, I'm not sure that EVERY competition needs to have a plus-sized division. If your levels are clearly laid out, then each dancer would choose their division based on their skill level, not their size. THAT being said, I do appreciate that Roz created Dangerous Curves so that there is a safe place for plus-sized dancers to compete. I don't think it's a big secret that larger bodies in general are often judged and looked down upon. Sure, our bodies probably move differently just based on the amount of flesh we get to move around. I love seeing dancers like Roz and "loveracing25" busting stereotypes. But I know many believe that pole is for smaller, "more fit" bodies. I participate in showcases because I believe it is good for me to put my chubby ass out there to show support, but I don't think I'd ever compete regardless of the category.
Black Orchid · 1/24/2014
Yeah for many of the reasons stated i think that it makes sense in a way when there is a competition or showcase that specifically sets out to create safe space/celebrate women who are considered plus size ( at least for the purpose of the event). To me it would be like a showcase for queer women/women of color etc etc and serves a positive purpose in specifically highlighting a diverse aspect of our community. Not sure how that would work in a more general competition but am interested in hearing responses about that. After all many competitions have a Masters Division ( that I would prefer to compete in rather than Pro) so...
minicoopergrl · 1/24/2014
When I did the first DC, we were all different shapes and sizes. Lots of the competitors were first time competitors and just love Roz's spirit to create a positive competition. It was a great competition, and there wasn't drama. Roz's focus was on FUN and enjoying the experience. To me it was more of a focus of an entertainment value rather than how many hardcore moves can you bust out flawlessly in 3min. As a long time competitor, you have to have a mentality walking into it. Ive gotten much better about it over the years. I used to take it VERY hard. My first competition, I missed making it to the finals by ONE point. Last year when I did Atlantic, I came in last. And I knew I was going to be ok with that. A few years ago, one lady from FL was putting on an all plus size competition but due to so many elements, it never happened. As a former event organizer myself, I know how much time is taken away from the rest of your life to put together a one night show. Personally, I wouldn't be offended if the organizer was not plus sized. I feel that if you are putting this event with the right intentions and have a love of the sport, than the number on your pants shouldn't bother me. For some women, they would feel comfortable having a level just for plus sized. Some feel like they can't compete w/a woman who is a size 2 and might shy away from ever competing . I felt like that on multiple occasions when I competed. I even started to feel like I wasn't being scored correctly b/c I was plus sized.
Lina Spiralyne · 1/24/2014
I also wonder about the definition of plus-sized. Could it be determined from BMI? I guess the idea is not to divide because it's more difficult to manage pole for someone big, but to show acceptance to less slim girls in pole fitness. I'm 5'8''1/2 and weigh 145 lbs, which in many ways make me feel kind of plus in pole fitness. But since no one would see me as a "big girl" I got the feeling that I'd have to compete with the light women anyway... Or what do you think?
lolorashel · 1/24/2014
Duh...and how did I leave you out, Lulu!! You are an inspiration to me! Also, polergirl, I think plus-sized is determined by the person...you would choose to enter that category or not. I don't think there would be someone at the door with a scale deciding who gets in to the plus category. :)
lolorashel · 1/24/2014
Lina, I really loved how Roz described plus-size when she set up her competition. Of course, I can't find the wording now that I want to quote it. But it basically said something about, in the US, size 12 and up being considered plus-sized, but that people in general could certainly encompass someone who is a smaller size but who still feels "plus-sized."
Lina Spiralyne · 1/24/2014
@lolorashel: That sounds like a good definition. Because I'm thinking that most would pretty much just LOL at me if I applied for a plus-division :). I'm not planning on competing anyway, but it's interesting to reflect upon it. And I can definitely wear size 12 on my lower body even though 10 usually fits me better :)
MD5677 · 1/24/2014
I wear 12/14. I don't consider myself plus size. Hmmmm. Sounds like dangerous territory. I like the post that says a skill is a skill is a skill..... If nothing else the poler should self select into such a category. Just my two cents.
Lina Spiralyne · 1/24/2014
Now I see that I messed up with the sizes. I was referring to UK ones. American size is obviously UK-2. So I'm not reaching plus then. Just in height for sure :)
Laurenosters5919 · 1/24/2014
At first I thought it was a good idea, but then I thought that maybe we (speaking generally) need to get away from labels. We don't want to cause division within our awesome pole community. (I'm sorry, I'm terrible with words.) I really think there would be serious division. The pole community is where a lot of girls feel safe and good about themselves. I would discourage a "plus size" division. Does that make sense?
ErinHClark007 · 1/24/2014
I must say, I second (third?) the idea of having it defined by skill rather than size. I think that skill is much easier to quantify than is body shape.
TheDiva · 1/25/2014
Let me combine all of my FB responses into one: First, I am beyond flattered that Charley, Lori and others consider me a leader in this niche. Thank you SO MUCH for the recognition! This is a messy, complicated topic, so no real hate on those who don't agree with me. Charley Crystal, PLEASE make a plus size division because I want to win another title and I can't enter my own comp LOL. I have no quams about a traditional size dancer producing something for larger dancers. As long as you don't use ignorant shit like "big girl" and "thick chick" I will cosign. I also think it is great to talk to the plus size pole peeps for input. Personally, I enjoy having specific divisions that go out o a limb. Dangerous Curves is about celsbrating diversity. I was tired of being the only person who looked like me on stage and wanted some plus size company. I'm black, which means I have my PhD in being comfortable being the only minority somewhere. In pole, my size is my minority card. Every so often, I just get exhausted and tired and bored being the minority. A plus size comp is my way to not be the "only." It feels WONDERFUL. Plus size and athlete are rarely used in the same sentence. People don't know we exsist. Fuck that. I need everyone to know we are here and have real value in sports. I'm outspoken, loud, bold, and intend on making a career off of broken stereotypes. I don't know any other way to be at this point. Plus, I've pretty much run out of fucks to give. About defining plus size: that question is the hardest part of all this. No matter what you say, it'll always be complicated, so no hate how you choose to define it. I ask my competitors to self identify as plus size, citing that a size 14+ is a LOOSE estimate of where plus starts. If a size 6 came to me and felt plus size, I'd be damned before I fought her. The saddest part is when you start getting hit up by people who ask you if they are big enough, trying to justify their extra 5 LBS as proof they are huge. BODY DYSMORPHIA LIKE WHOA?! I will also full admit that my system of self identification is flawed. I'm ready to accept any and all SV/FB drama that will ensue, lol. BMI can suck a dick. I wear a 12-16 these days. To Eurocentric (white) pop culture, I am for sure larger then what is considered acceptable. For colored people, I'm average or too small to be a true plus size.
TheDiva · 1/25/2014
I agree that plus dancers are fully capable of competing with others, as demonstrated by Aileen Vegas winning multiple titles in 2013. I like that distinct divisions give light to the unique contributions of certain cultures. They do not always seek to give an unfair advantage or pity points to those "less abled" in some way. Ironically, when birds of a feather flock together, the very trait that usually singles them out individually becomes obsolete because they ALL have that shit, allowing them to focus on real shit like who's getting drunk first when they fly to South Beach for the winter. What I have also noticed is that the CROWD also stops giving two fucks about what makes them different and respects them for just being bomb at what they do.
MD5677 · 1/25/2014
Interesting that you are from Brooklyn. I am a new poler so maybe the competition world is different but the one thing I have noticed is how diverse the poling community is. So diverse that I would find it hard to categorize a single group of polers. If I had to divide, it would be on gender.
Twinkletoessaky6621 · 1/25/2014
Twinkle Toes here! I much prefer the leveled competition model. I think it puts the responsibility in the hands of the competitor to categorize their level based on set guidelines. I am considered a plus poler but, as a male, I'm expected to be as strong and as accelerated in learning curve as my tinier male counterparts (and when we talk about people not looking like you backstage, I win the internets). Though I don't compete often, the idea of competing in a non-segmented male category in a large scale competition (DC exempt as it's based more on entertainment value and crowd pleasing and less on death defying tricks) frustrates me. One could argue that you should compete to have fun and I always do (backstage at DC is LIVE). In the interest of even standing a chance competitively, though, has to be leveled as every trick can be somewhat stocked into a level category (it would not make since for me to do a level 1. It's no shade. It's being responsible and fair). In this way, it neutralizes the competition and size does not matter.
Pole Geek · 1/25/2014
I wear a size 14 and am 5'11" so by most standards I am considered plus size, though I really don't view myself that way. I am also competiting in my first comp, Pacfic Pole Competition. So I love the idea of Dangerous Curves being a plus size only competition and plus size being a self evaluation. I completely agree with what Roz wrote; "... when birds of a feather flock together, the very trait that usually singles them out individually becomes obsolete because they ALL have that shit ..." and think that is part of the reason plus size specific events are so important. First it is helpful to take size out of the performance equation and second, more polers need plus size polers to look to and be inspired by. That being said I would NEVER enter a plus size category of a traditional competition. It would feel like the plus size category was an ugly stepchild of the competition. Like these men and woman can't hang with the normals so we gave them their own category so they aren't competiting out of their league. If it is a pole competition for everyone I would have categories based on ability/skill level. That is what PPC is and I appreciate that there is so much variety in the types and levels of categories of competition that almost any competitor can find the correct level for themselves.
Charley · 1/25/2014
I am really enjoying everyone's thoughts on this. I'm also so happy that we can have this type of open conversation in a safe and loving way. When this suggestion was brought to me I knew immediately that it was a complex conversation and could be controversial. It's through these conversations that we make a better pole world for everyone and Veena, many thanks for giving us an open forum to discuss these topics. I believe "plus size" needs to be self determined. I don't even love that term, is there a better term? I also believe that creating a competition for plus size dancers NEEDS to be as important as any other division. It would need to be done in a way that highlights dancers instead of making the statement that they are incapable and that is a very fine line. Pso and Midwest both come to mind when I think of competitions that provide diversity and celebrate it. I personally prefer skill level based criteria because I love seeing everyone on the stage but I'm also not plus sized and not dealing with EMOTIONAL component of competing against someone who I feel has added advantages based on size. I mean, I certainly deal with my set of issues competing like lack of flexibility and wow moves but those are things I can readily change if I hunker down. This is an extremely complex discussion because we are dealing with how we view ourselves and others AND layering in a competitive environment that judges someone's ability and art. It's deeply personal and at the same time it's a conversation we need to be having as pole pushes forward. It's about creating as much equity as we can to provide the safest places and opportunities for others with fairness and love so that we can celebrate everyone's unique contributions to pole.
Stephaniejj4369 · 1/25/2014
I am definitely in the "sexy curves" category. I am a size 20/22 and working on getting healthy and strong. I don't think I'd ever compete because I don't like being judged on anything. I would probably cry my eyes out watching a "plus sized" competition because I'd be so proud of the women willing to put themselves out there. I'd love to see more women that look like me on stage. It might encourage me to showcase. If it makes women more comfortable, I totally support a category like that. I love this discussion and look forward to seeing my pole sisters strut their stuff!
vipergal · 1/28/2014
As my good friend Layla Duvay told me when I first started, us big girls have to work that much harder!
PinkPony · 1/28/2014
Are there currently rules in existing competitions that disqualify polers of a certain size? This is a slippery slope. Should we start separating dancers according to height as well? Surely their proportions affect how they move. I don't understand why the pole world has gravitated toward competitions instead of showcases. It seems like as soon as they can invert, people want to compete. If you want to do what you love for an audience, it makes sense to be part of a recital or show. Why bring in the aspect of comparing yourself to others? It seems unnecessary and potentially not very beneficial. If you love pole & want to show it, I understand and everyone should have the chance to show off their personal style :) But competing means you want to be compared to others and judged. And why should competitions cater to specific body types? Isn't training your body part of the dedication that comes with competing?
Amani · 1/29/2014
There is a lot of discussion about what qualifies for "plus size". Some will find the term itself offensive. I am woman who is somewhat in between. Too big to hang with the small girls and too small to hang with the big girls. My favorite song at the club used to be "where the big girls at". Once a guy came up to me and told me that song wasn't for me because I'm not a big girl. Well I am certainly not petite or small or whatever word they are using these days. Ok, back to the topic. Have you thought of having a category for "the everyday woman" or something similar. I like the "curvy girl" term that you use. Anything besides "plus size". That would be inclusive and dignified. If there were such a category I would be excited about it.
IrishOrla · 1/29/2014
To be honest with you I think it's just personal preference. A girl entering a competition in a curvy girls section would need to be fully accepting of re body and proud. It's scary believe me I've battled with myself for years I'm too big. Now that I've found pole I don't care, I wear crop tops on the pole which I wouldn't do any other time- this is a big deal lol. But yes, I would enter a section devoted to curvier girls because let's face it, although we can do all the same moves, be the same strength as the smaller girls, I myself cannot going myself around as they do. I don't find it offensive at all a category specifically aimed for girls like me because we are all different and there's nothing wrong with being a bit bigger. The only thing to be careful about is what u call the category. For me I'd say " the curve-luscious category" , just a thought :)

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