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Sexuality and Pole Dancing
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It would seem that no matter how gentle I phrase my opinion, it’s still going to piss someone off. I meant no offense to anyone, I apologize for getting anyone upset.
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I think its funny that barefoot is considered less sexy! I dated a man w/ a thing for bare feet, so to me, they are the ULTIMATE sexy. When I’m in heels, I’m just walking. When I’m barefoot, I’m pointing my toes as hard as I can and really paying attention to my legs. Which just goes to show… Sexy is what ever it is to the person doing it!!
And poledanceromance — thanks for the dolphin info! I forgot about them! Bonobos (another primate) also do lots of sex play, but I’m not sure about actual intercourse. I’m a big science nerd, too! https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_e_wink.gif
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Thanks for starting this discussion thread. I’ve been interested in what you all have had to say so far. I want to start sharing my opinion on this subject by reviewing a dialogue had with a friend while dining together at our favorite Chinese restaurant.
Refering to the song playing on the radio, "Wasted" performed by Carrie Underwood, I made the statement, "I think I really want to dance to this song."
"THIS song?" Nikki replied, confused.
"Yes, why not?"
Still trying to understand, Nikki asked, "So do you just really like Country music a lot, or what?"
"No, not generally, but this particular song moves me for some reason. I think it would interpret well in a dance."
"But you can’t dance to this!"
"Why not?"
And then it came out. Nikki replied, "because it isn’t sexy!"
So then I went there. "Why should that matter? Why should I have to be sexy?"
"Well…. because you’re on a pole!"
I will admit to being irritated by that dialogue. Personally, I don’t find it terribly distasteful to be thought capable of erotic movement, but because Nikki is my friend I have wanted her to be able to understand that pole dancing for me is a type of acrobatic performance, rather than erotic entertainment. The attitude I have toward pole dancing would place poles in circuses rather than in sexual types of environments. I personally do have respect for exotic dancers. I consider them artists of a sort. Its easy to have charisma when you feel wanted by droves of attractive and charming people. To remain charismatic while marketing oneself to drunken, lonely, chauvenistic and potentially obnoxious individuals takes a high degree of skill and self-control. Mind you, I’m sure there are some clubs where a higher callibre of individual is in attendance; but in general, I think the likelihood of going into a gentleman’s club and finding an actual "gentleman" are probably not particularly high. But I digress.
I aspire toward a pinnacle of physical virtuosity. This is not so I can be beautiful, it’s so that I can be efficient in athletic and acrobatic types of performances. Should I, at some point, choose to consciously integrate sexuality into my work on the pole, or any other performance medium, the sexuality is merely a decoration. For me, sex and pole are about as connected as pine trees are with blown glass bulbs. People put bulbs on trees, but there is no innate connection between them. I think connecting poles with sexuality makes about as much sense as connecting sexuality with radiators, tennis balls, or lemons. In one of Amcut’s video’s I saw her use part of her wall/countertop in a way that looked pretty damned hot. But speaking just for myself, it doesn’t seem that it would be logical to consider all walls to possess erotic qualities just because someone looked fantastic when using it as part of some sensual movement.
Any medium can be used for purposes of erotica, whether in private or in performance. Chairs are sometimes used in exotic dance, but how many of us have been asked if we are strippers just because we’ve been seated in a chair? Food can be used in a way that is sexy. Music can be used to entertain in an erotic way, as easily as it can be used for other kinds of entertainment.
On the converse side of this, really any activity could be considered sexually exciting by someone, and it doesn’t have to be an erotic performance done scantily clad. High school, college, and professional athletes can tend to be labeled "players" in their personal lives as the result of their sexual prowess. I’m sure we all remember some of these personalities from our own time in school, our team positions, or by looking at tabloids and gossip television programmes. But even though sports such as football do not contain an inherently erotic element in them, there appears to be something about competitive sports that generates a charisma that many women and perhaps some men seem to find very sexually exciting. The same can be said of musical performances. Many singers, guitarists, and other musicians are highly coveted sexually, even though their musical stylings, attire, and movements may not be overtly sexual in performance. Why is this? My theory is that there is a particular kind of glory projected on performers and athletes of different kinds, and there is something in us that understands that by engaging the recipient of that projection in a sexual way, we are somehow increasing our own sense of self and collective value and partaking in a piece of that other person’s glory ourselves. This glory can be carried equally well by a political leader, a medical pioneer, a goalie on a hockey team, a celebrity chef, an animal rescuer, or a pole dancer. We all want to partake of the power, strength, grace, mercy, money, beauty, charm, genius, expressiveness, and creativity of others; and at least to a limited degree, sex and sexuality enable us to do that. But when we do, I think it is important to remember that it is often we who are projecting the sexuality on something we value in that other person, rather than experiencing a sexual feeling directly which would be based on physical, emotional, or intellectual attraction and chemistry.
The last time I did a public pole dance performance, I selected music that could be considered somewhat macabre, and tried to choreograph in a way that communicated a similar feeling. I was furious at the DJ who did not prepare the music as I had paid him weeks in advance to do, because I had to improvise a performance to a song I had never heard before. Even though the performance was successful, I was livid, mainly because I didn’t get to express myself how I desired to. I feel that as a pole dancer, if I would like to express erotic feelings through my music, I absolutely have the right to do that. Likewise, I feel quite entitled to express melancholy, anger, jollity, childishness, despair, remorse, reverie, respect, or whatever other feeling I would like to express. My hope as a pole dance performer is that whatever audience I end up in front of will recognise and appreciate the emotion I’m trying to express by movement and song selection, rather than doing one of the following: either experiencing that performance as having to do something with sexuality, or criticising the performance because it wasn’t sexy enough.
This, like so many other issues, just comes down to preference. When I competed in a talent show in November, I pole danced and I felt like I very successfully pulled off some erotic movement. This was so that I could garner the audience response that I would need in order to win. But when I gave my follow-up performance to collect the rest of my prize money the next time that show was held, I selected a song that I didn’t feel sexual about and choreographed in a way that I didn’t feel was sexual, because I wasn’t "competing" and didn’t have to impress anyone. If I have to use sex to sell my pole dancing, I’m willing to do that. But if I can avoid it, I would prefer to.
I appreciate pole dancers like Kym, who wears sneakers in her pole performances, and Barbara that won Pole Superstar, who did that performance barefooted. I love the videos taken from Jenyne’s master classes on her UK tour, and did not feel remotely deprived that she didn’t wear high heel shoes for those performances; and in fact I thought it made her lines look straighter and cleaner. I find heels distracting and liable to subtract something from the performance. The hypocrisy which can be found in pole dancing never ceases to amaze me. We demand first to be recognised as athletes and fitness enthusiasts instead of strippers, and then in performance we adhere rigidly to traditional strip-club style dancing, performing many of the exact same dance moves that can be seen on any day in any strip club. I am okay with being thought of as a stripper firstly because I respect strippers and secondly because even if I did have a problem with being thought of that way I know that isn’t what I’m doing. I suspect that many people who are successful pole dancers have fantasies or fetishes of being a stripper. But its hard for me to respect someone demanding to be recognised as an athlete who orgasmically wiggles around on the floor in string and heels. But then I must admittedly make some note of hypocrisy in my own statement here, because if I’m trying to help to divorce poles from strippers in the minds of the people I interact with, it is unfair of me to say that specific kinds of attire and dance moves are typical of strippers just because strip clubs are the specific location where those dance moves are usually performed and that attire is worn. I suspect it’s possible that what we’re really doing is bringing the strip club out of the gutter and into daylight, and lending some legitimacy to what it offers.
Having said all of that, I want to express that I am equally skeptical of the "pole fitness" fad. I personally do not use pole dancing as a way to keep myself fit, even though I recognise that it is one of the results. I am definitely not on the pole fitness bandwagon, though. I pole dance as a means of aerial performance. I keep fit in order to be more effective as a pole dancer, rather than pole dancing for fitness. To me, it seems as though the pole fitness crowd has polarised itself against the erotic pole performance crowd. I fall into neither category, as far as I can tell. But I am convinced that the more adamant one is about pole dancing for fitness, the greater the anxiety is present with regard to ones own sexuality. Quite often the pole fitness nazis are among the seediest movers on the floor, as far as I have observed. The remainder seem to be unattached to any particular philosophy about pole, but merely express their love for this art through sharing their dances. Of course one has to acknowledge that one develops a stronger and healthier body as the result of being on the pole, but I find it hard to believe that this is the primary motivation for most pole enthusiasts.
Last, but quite related, I’m slightly disturbed by some recent comments on one of my videos on YouTube. I do find it ironic that I received two comments in less than a week inquiring if I was gay because I posted a pole dance video, which I didn’t think was sexual at all, homo or otherwise. Its funny how people want to tack sexuality onto everything. When I started wearing occasional black eyeliner and got my ears pierced, I felt like I had to defend against the same line of questions with the same types of answers.
http://www.youtube.com/comment_servlet?all_comments&v=jZ8Whz5wLSo
In this dialogue, I felt as though it was necessary to defend pole dancing from being called "gay" rather than being called stripping. After all this time, we are still a pretty misunderstood lot. What else can we do besides pray for these poor people?
I know that was really long-winded. I had no idea all that was about to come out! Do forgive me for writing another novel!
I have to confess, though… if I were a little less afraid of being perceived as sexual when I do a performance or a recording, I have to imagine my routines would be more danceworthy and flowy, and a bit less trick-after-trick-after-trick. I have always been apt to admit that (pole-related) dancing is not my strong suit; I find the acrobatics a lot easier and this may be part of the reason.
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Foxy, I think I understand your point, and it’s very well articulated! Being a fan of burlesque, myself, I’m fine about the pasties and things, but I think a lot of the grabbing and blatant sexuality in burlesque is meant to be humorous…I’ve seen one woman who grabbed both boobs, and then went "Oh!" like that totally WASN’T what she was going for…but it was all planned, and I thought it was cute and funny.
However, I think that blatant, clear "I’ma give you a boner" is also a turn-off for me, and I actually have a difficult thing with the whole…crotch touching. I’ve thought about it, and it’s really not my thing. Neither is showing it off. I know a move I learned from the studio I used to go to (and may have even done it in my video!) that’s called the "money shot," which I’ve officially decided to do AWAY from the audience, mostly because I don’t want to be blatantly showing that part! I think it’s far more interesting to be showing it, but not to the audience…make them wonder! -
Even a Chinese pole, with a maleperformer, can be sexual. I think there is a great deal of sexiness in this Chinese pole video of Remi Martin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaB_0LUGfjQ"
Saphirecatzeye, your opinion is really interesting. I think contortionism is *definitely* viewed by some folks as *very* sexual – the whole "sexy flexy" (bendy in bed) thing! Does that annoy you?
Personally, I’m so in awe at the superhuman strengths and abilities of gymnasts, contortionists, pole dancers, aerial acrobats alike that the presence of heels, a sculpted male torso, or booty popping doesn’t even register on my scandal-o-meter!! https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_lol.gif
I LOVE that performance by remi martin! for me i see it as the furthest away from being sexual , the song ‘Hope there’s someone’ by Antony & Johnsons is so emotional , and if you look up him playing it live on YouTube he is known for showing such passion in his singing. I just feel it was pure beauty and expression. Like Remi was connecting to Antony’s feelings though dance. but thats just how i see it.
And after you mentioned it about contortion being viewed as sexy, I know people do see it that way. But it doesnt have the stigma like pole dancing does. I’ve also had alot more guys think its weird and painful looking than respond the other way. (in my personal at-home life not internet) But i’m also a big fantasy (books and movies) fan, so I see contortion and pole as forms to take you to ‘another world’ almost https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_e_wink.gifHmm.. perhaps I would have been more true to say "sensual" instead of "sexual" at the start of my post here. Oh what a fine line that is sometimes!
Contortism is damn cool, whatever it is!
Everyones opinions here are really interesting! Great thread!
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ok so had to walk away and take a deep breath before responding as was quite irritated by some statements. https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_mad.gif first i would like to say everyone is entitled to their own opinions/beliefs/feelings and i think it’s great that we can talk openly an dhonestly about these sorts of things. https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_cheers.gif i am going to try to keep this short and focus on the bottom line of this issue. to me any sort of dance / art is a form of SELF expression. meaning you express how YOU feel. not how someone else says or thinks you should feel. i dance barefoot w shorts and in a very cheecky, fun way, but i also dance in 5 inch heels and not much else. and.. ? https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_queen.gif i enjoy many styles of dance and the oppurtunityto use diffrent movements, expressions, outfits ect to express myself. i believe there is a time and a place for everything. you can’t go into a strip club and than be offended when a girl is topless and touching herself. https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_bounce.gif yor in HER enviroment. she is not in your living room. thats like jumping into the middle of the ocean and being mad when you get attacked ny a shark. you went looking for it. if you are at a family oriented pole performance, yes i would expect a diffrent dress and attitude from the performers. it’s like that "woman" who sat there watching a pole vid and calling the girls whores.. hello YOU are seeking it out. https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_scratch.gif its not lilke strippers walk around wearing a gstring and having their breasts hang out while they groccery shop. https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_e_surprised.gif
if your judging someone based on what they have on their feet or how they express themselves thru dance ( in the appropriate enviroment. wouldnt be cool to see someone on a pole at the park rubbing themselves) it says more about you than it does about them. at the end of the day it’s your choice how you dance/express yourself and as long as your are old enough, not breaking the law, or doing things in an inappropriate enviroment, who’s going to stop you and why would you let anyone control how you use YOUR body? i think as women we should try to suppourt each others desicions, https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_flower.gif and if you dont like what you see, well you can always turn your head or walk away. i don’t care if anyone likes it or not (me poling) and i think thats why even the few people who thought they were going to discourage me know better now. https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_batman.gif pOLER FOR LIFE BABY! and i will do it naked, w tit tassles, heels, barefoot, sexy, coy, or whatever/however i feel! -
Wowee! There’s some strong feelings here! Sex, religion and politics are not for polite conversation- someone told me that once. Lucky for me I am not a polite person! I just wanted to say I agree with everyone’s comments to some extent; you all made valid points. We’re all entitled to our own styles of pole, our own opinions, our own sexuality, our own hang ups, our own values….you get the point. What we are not entitled to is trying to impose these things on others. Everyone- enjoy what you do and let everyone else do the same. I LOVE the sexy side of pole, but I totally downplay that side when talking to most people because I’m trying to open their eyes and I don’t want to scare them off. I am already in the tiny monority in several categories in our conservative town- I don’t want to be burned at the stake!
I guess I just wanted to wish everyone happy poling- whether you’re wearing shorts and tennies or 8 inch pleasers and a smile. Peace!
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AMEN GIRL! https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_cheers.gif POWER TO THE POLERS !!!! https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_sunny.gif (regardless of style, opinion ect https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_queen.gif )
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I just wanna say I love you guys. All of you. And I love all of your opinions! https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_e_biggrin.gif
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I remember an interview that Felix did last year in the UK, and how she felt about pole dancing and stigmas etc (or something like that). She said that her aim was to make people realise that just like any other form of dance, the interpretation of movement by polers can be just as varied, and one form (etc fitness) isn’t better or worse than any other (ie erotic), but instead all types should be celebrated as unique and beautiful.
I totally agree with her, personally my style is more to the balletic/lyrical type, and while I appreciate the ‘fitness’ aspect of it you’ll NEVER see me wearing sneakers in a performance (if you’re not going to wear heels, a lovely pointed toe looks much better https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_e_biggrin.gif ). @StellarMotion I totally agree that this whole extreme fitness vs sexy is totally unnecessary, a silly polarisation that limits the style you can learn depending on the studio owner’s take on it.
I think sexiness in pole dancing come from that mesmerising ‘OMFG-I-can’t-look-away-they’re-amazing’ ability where the dance just EXUDES confidence, every movement to the smallest hair toss is performed 110%, whether she’s wearing an itty bitty bikini or shorts and a tank top.
I’m taking some lessons at Bobbi’s in Perth at the moment, where you have to wear pleaser-type heels when training. I have to say what they excel at is not just teaching a move/trick, but all the idiosyncrasies of the initial invert, the small movements to position into the trick, and right to the type of dismount, which in my opinion are just as important as getting the trick itself. Consequently the instructors and students are just amazing, every movement is just soooo sensual, I’m trying hard to copy but right now I’m just concentrating on not falling over in the shoes https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_redface.gif )
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Polegrrrrl – I am soooo jealous!!! Would love to have a class in Bobbi’s!! Oh the Felixes and Allegras!
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Polergrrrl, I agree with Deetron…sooo jealous! I’d love to have a studio that was so in-depth! And I understand your difficulty with the shoes…I don’t wear mine often, and when I do, I almost fall at least twice, pole or not! It’s kinda scary! I’m trying to get some shoes (tomorrow! https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_e_biggrin.gif ) that have a bit better ankle strap, so that at least I know they fit, and stay on properly. https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_cheers.gif
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Hi! I’m not sure whether it was my statements found objectionable or someone else’s, but I did want to clarify a little bit. I hope that when I mentioned shoes earlier, you didn’t hear me say "Kim and Barbara are superior pole dancers because they are not 6-inch platform-wearing whores." That is not even close to what I meant to imply. I do, however, appreciate that they did something different than the majority of their contemporaries when in performance. I like when people aren’t the same as everyone else. I don’t hate shoes, I just don’t think they should have to be standard or expected as they really seem to be. But having said that, I don’t wear shoes that have a heel; I’m sure that if there is ever a recognised venue for male pole dance performance or competition, I’ll be exempted from the platform heel standard.
Regardless, I have a slightly non-conformist type of personality so I notice and respect when someone defies a standard. I wasn’t at world last year, but as far as I can tell Amy Impey was the only competitor who wasn’t in shoes. I noticed and appreciated it because it was different from the standard, not because I thought it made her less stripper-like. Remember, I have respect for strippers. But speaking just for myself as a non-conformist, the more sexually I see others behave, or the more sexuality is expected of me, the more frigid I’m likely to become. There is an energetic and radical rebel in me that just wants to do the opposite of what is standard.
But the pole dancers I respect the most are the ones who can pull off a very wide variety of feelings through a performance, instead of just sexual ones. And I do think there are standards of tastefulness to consider as well. There are very popular pole dancers who perform very strong, super-advanced moves with extraordinary precision, but the bits of themselves that they put on display with some of their dance moves still leaves me wishing they would just stop. This can be true of male performers too. There’s a guy on YouTube that has a lot of really good pole moves, but his dancing, to me, is in rather bad taste. But this fellow is honest and honorable to state openly that his performance is "stripper style." Sexuality doesn’t have to mean giving it all away. If you were to look at some really old movies, you probably wouldn’t find a lot of overt sex scenes. But you might see a couple going to a different room and closing the door, and you know what they’re doing. I don’t consider myself old-fashioned at all, but as creative people involved in a creative performing medium I think we should be willing to develop enough artistic skill to generate some kind of feeling in the observer, whether that is a sexual feeling or some other kind, without putting it in black and white. And by confining our performances to being a form of erotic expression, we are only limiting ourselves as artists and denying ourselves of some of the healing and cathartic power that all of the arts have when we give them a chance to work their magic on and through us.
I don’t have a problem with sexual dancing. I dance sexually sometimes. But I have a problem with it being expected. And I don’t, per se, have a problem with it being so constant in pole, but I think its consistency fuels the ongoing expectation. And the expectation imbues in budding pole dancers a belief that sexual movement is part of the industry standard. Thus a kind of vicious cycle is formed, the result of which is that we continue to have to "justify" pole dancing as not being stripping. Unfortunately, that "justification" ends up resulting in an inadvertent expression of disrespect for strippers and exotic dancers, the more adamant about explaining the difference any of us become.
With that said, there is a kind of honor code among exotic dancers, even in the all nude clubs. The dancers who touch their private bits or let the patrons touch them anywhere are not respected by the other dancers at that club. It is generally assumed that the dancers who do are doubling as prostitutes. Mind you, I personally don’t think that prostitution is objectionable either, and I believe that prostitutes deserve respect too. I’d just keep it out of the club though, because it changes the environment and the expectations of the patrons on the other dancers who are not taking side-jobs.
Last, I have to wonder sometimes, who are we trying to turn on? Most of the "whoos" you hear when a pole performer starts doing sexy floor dancing are straight females cheering for straight females. I believe that the most common type of pole dance enthusiast is the suburban housewife. And from what I can tell, most formal pole dance performances and competitions are primarily attended by other straight female pole dancers. Does it really serve anyone to go before an audience of unsuited and probably unavailable persons and act like we want to excite them sexually? And are we, as an audience, really doing this art and its highest calibre vanguards any service by encouraging them to use the same sexual dance style they use all the time? It’s nice to encourage our friends, of course. But maybe we could encourage them to do something cool instead. Perhaps we can encourage them to break out of their comfort zones, which primarily contain average, common strip-club moves and facial expressions to match. Leading with the butt, in my opinion, is not the most endearing way to engage an audience, but that’s just my feeling. I’m sure there are some audience members who would enjoy being approached butt-first by the performers. But still. Heterosexual women being sexy for each other and pretending to be excited about it makes me giggle a little.
I don’t think its wrong to use pole dancing as one of the mediums to act out some of our own sexual fantasies, or to act out fantasies of our sexual identities and who we might aspire to become. Any artistic or performing medium can be used for this purpose. But I think it is helpful to be aware of ourselves doing so while its happening.
Damn, PoleGrrrrl! How did you get to Sydney? I thought you were around UK somewhere. I wish I could take classes at Bobbi’s too, as long as I wouldn’t have to wear pleasers with the rest of you! What a funny irony, though, that you were winning competitions before you studied there. Most people go to Bobbi’s studio and then become champions after. I can’t wait to see your next recording after you’ve been training at Bobbi’s. Share everything you learn! I’m really happy for you!
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I go into a whole different part of my mind when I’m on the pole, or when I’m dancing anywhere, to anything. I touch myself. I swivel, and maybe grind, and roll my body…whatever the music seems to want. I like to think I am sexy, but that’s so subjective. Let’s just say I don’t necessarily strive for sexy but I hope it finds me, lol. But I see some women (and men) dancing and am just in awe of their strength and playfulness; I have a deep respect for that, too.
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Wow. I’m so impressed and proud of everyone. LOVE this community! Thank you Veena!!
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