Unethical competitions
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Here is the thread; unfortunately EvaRut is no longer here so I cannot link her blog where she put all of the scoring guidelines that she received from the competition. https://www.studioveena.com/forums/view/4754 The part I was referring to was this: Personality, on and off the stage during the length of the whole competition with judges, spectators, friends and other contestants. Appearance, clothing, costumes, hair/makeup on and off the stage.
Here is teh link to her blog. For some reason when I clicked on it in the thread it said that user was not longer valid but when I searched her I found her. Huh... https://www.studioveena.com/blogs/view/World-Pole-championship-valuation-
I just got this formal email from USPDF: Good Morning, We would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your interest in competing as an amateur competitor for the US Pole Dance Championship 2012: Amateur Division. Our judging panel has completed its review of submission entries. We regret to inform you that you have not been selected as a finalist for this competition. We appreciate your interest and want to thank you for your time spent preparing your submission video and your entry. It is our policy to support growth as a pole dancer, so we offer feedback of your submission video, by request. Our judging panel was composed of professionals Laura Mak (IFBB Fitness Pro) and Gwyneth Larsen (Aerial Choreographer and Professional Dancer). Their selection of finalists followed strict USPDF qualifying guidelines. Specifically they focused on technique, transition, coordination, creativity, individuality, flexibility, strength, extensions, consistency, dynamics, musicality, dancing and performance. Ultimately the panel was seeking finalists who are well-rounded pole dancers mastering the pole and the floor, and executing seamless transitions. Also adhering to USPDF guidelines, all amateur submissions had to be received by the deadline, May 24, 2012 11:59PM EST. Any entries submitted or received after this specific date and time, were considered inadmissible. We received some questions regarding this deadline and we sincerely apologize for any confusion. There were no extensions for any late entries. This is also true for the Pro submission deadline. Each of the Pro Division athletes was personally and individually invited to submit entries. The Pro invitation had strict deadline information and no exceptions were considered. USPDF strives to conduct all competitions with complete fairness. We encourage you to visit our web site on a regular basis for current information and updates. We wish you success in pursuit of your pole goals. Sincerely, USPDF
amy ·
Thanks Organic Angel.Unfortunately-- the amateur deadline listed in the email isn't the same deadline listed on the USPDF Fan page, or the USPDF website itself. I'm not sure if that's an oversight (I have been messaging Wendy Traskos of USPDF, but she hasn't responded to my last message sent yesterday-- I'm sure she's busy) or if that is now their "official" stance on the submission deadline. Misslara... thanks for your message. you're right that while intentions can be good, results can still be hurtful. it's something that i am sorry about, and guilt ridden over. while that doesn't help, I feel I still need to say it. I did talk with Wendy about the deadline. I am still hoping for a response from her on my last message. I am trying to figure out how to best communicate the information I've received... and, to be honest, whether or not I should even bother.
Thanks Amy. I think it is important. For example, I had posted two submission videos. I wanted my friends to take a look and see which one to put up. One person responded to one of them, but after the 11:59 AM time. Had I had longer than that, I'd have changed my submission video to the other one. So for me the time mattered in that way.(You can see both of the ones I posted and I even had in the title probably the one I should have submitted shortly after noon?) It doesn't matter now. What is done is done. I totally missed the AM and PM in the email I just received and wow, can't believe it didn't read 11:59 AM! But, I'm not a sour apple over it. I think my video was among the elite of the videos that were selected! I think it rocked! I did an amazing job and that is what I am proud about :) I messaged the email too for video feedback and got that email in response. Hmmmmm.... a generic email for feedback? Not sure-have to wait it out I guess.
Wanted to clarify something: I am glad people pushed limits and submited after b/c you never know-you may just have a chance.(some honestly donn't know)- All of the submissions are amazing. It takes a lot to do that! (I did think studio owners/workers got an extended time for some reason.) I don't have any grudge, jealousy or ill feelings about anyone or the organizer. And even though I would have swapped my vid- I am not holding onto that one idea. I think its just fate. Everything happens for a reason. (and I'm only building myself up b/c hey someone has to😉- I know there will always be growth.) I don't feel that it is unethical b/c of the late submissions + who was selected. I just hope judging will b fair in any future comps(and that isn't saying it wasn't in the past)My husband suggested voting grom the audience-like American Idol type of thing. Not sure what the answer is.I am just voicing one opinion . And will I submit again next year? Most likely.
One competition tried voting from the audience thing and it was a mess. Same with voting to get people into a competiton.....it turns into a popularity contest and not a skills contest.
Kira ·
@empy - sorry a bit off topic but just curious as I see this rule in a lot of competitions (I think the only one that doesn't have it as a rule is MPD Australia) - "Real names are used. No stage names." Is it so people don't get confused over who is who in case 2 people have chosen the same stage name? Or is it to keep it looking more professional?
I don't post here very much, but felt I needed to add my point of view. I ran the UK's largest competition PoleDivas Championships for 2 full years (and was involved in the running of the final in the previous year) Pole competitions are still relatively new. The original rule document for our competition in 2006 was 3 pages long including the entry form. In 2010, it was 7 pages of rules, 2 page entry form, and 3 additional pages of judging criteria. Every year we sat down for hours on end and revamped the rules depending on problems, questions, loopholes etc from previous years. Even then we received little thanks for the hard work put in for so many months of the year leading up to the final. Instead we would get "why don't you have a spinning pole?" or "when are you going to have a doubles competition?" or "your advanced section is too hard for me, but your amateur section is too easy, make an intermediate section". As other people have said, pole is still a small industry. It's very hard to find judges who have not had interaction with competitors, yet are well-known and respected in the industry. I can assure you we never had any agenda of who we wanted to win. We educated our judges on our scoring criteria, and let them judge. At the end we added up the scores. The person with the highest score won. TBH there were often surprising results, but CHANGING those results would be more unethical and unfair than any other route! (as an additional point here, the judges spend their time concentrating on the performer on stage, writing their comments, and deciding personally what score to give that competitor. I know as a judge I am not aware of the audience reaction until the performer is leaving the stage, and by that time, I've probably already written a score) The scoring system at the beginning was un-tested. How else do you test it other than using it AT the competition? And running just one competition a year does not give you many chances to change things around. USPDF seem to be a leader in US competitions. Trying out new concepts like the compulsory/optional rounds, how to select amateur/professional competitors. SOMEONE has to do these things first. In the UK in 2007 PoleDivas were the first competition to introduce the rule "hips higher than head" for setting the upper limit in beginner moves. A lot of people complained "this means I can't do x-y-z move"... but look now, how many competitions have now adopted this rule as standard. PoleDivas was run by 2 normal pole instructors. Just like most of you. The initial stages of the competition are entirely funded from our own pockets. We rarely got sponsorship in the form of cash, as above, most sponsors send gifts and merchandise, we occasionally had sponsors buy specific items for us as funding (for example MightyGrip would pay for our trophies). I can tell you now, from 2006 - 2010, we only actually made money in 2010. We aren't EXPERTS, we only do our best to offer a fair competition in the format that most people want to see. My final point is going to be. Why is so much anger being pointed towards the USPDF when they are at least trying to push pole forwards. A recent competition run in the US by a UK company - who COPY & PASTED PoleDivas Rules when they ran their first competition in 2009, and have not changed them in any of the other 9 or 10 competitions they have run since. These people are NOT about pushing pole forwards, they blatantly break copyright rules, are vague about competition details, change details of competitions without informing all competitors... I could go on. Why are we letting these people carry on?
I'd like to see no pole dance fitness competition discriminate against athletes also employed by the adult industry.
misslara ·
@RobynPoleDancer - thank you for providing a view from the other side!!!!
misslara ·
@Amy - It would probably be a good idea to share that information, since there were expressions that one "shouldnt expect any response from the USPDF." It's also an important part of the discussion- how the organization responds, certainly something not to be left in the shadows. I'm sure if wendy hasn't had a chance to respond to any further emails beyond most pressing questions, it's only to prioritize responses to the many actual applicants and resulting competitors, and to move forward with running the competition.
REDKE71 ·
mrsnaughtywed, Uspdf doesnt exactly discriminate against exotic dancers or anyone in the club industry. They DO ask that as a title holder you agree to not use your USPDF title to promote yourself in the club industry, if you so choose to work as an exotic dancer. And that you arent publicly promoting your "club" business while representing the uspdf as a title holder in the pole fitness industry and the public eye. There are, however, other competitions out there that feel the need to tell you that youre never allowed to work in a club again, if you win thier title or compete in their competition, under no circumstances. (even though they clearly pick entries who are obviously from a club background) This is just due to the pole fitness industry's constant battle against the public just viewing us as a bunch of strippers in training.. or superstrippers! :P BUT, i havent heard of any competitions just downright discriminating against entries from exotic dancers..
I'm sorry this is a competition that is not even in my country so there's nothing I can do about it. But this uspd matter about it being unethical is certainly bothering a lot of people. When so many people react to something like this it is because of somehting. And probably something that can be changed easily. I think it would be a good idea to get together signatures as someone else said in this discussion, so that the competition organizers will know that lack of transparency could have an impact on the community that is supporting it (it already is having and impact). But perhaps you should make a list of the things that you would like to ask. For example: -Posting deadlines in advance in all of the official web sites of the competition so there is no confusion. -Posting their criteria for judging. (Here in Argentina we get specifications on how many points you can get for every detail of your performance -guess it might be the same for uspd), for example: interpretation and concept: up to 10 points. Dancing and fluidity: up to 40 flexibility: up to 50 points. strength: 50 points....etc. And later you see your complete score so you know why someone has won or considered the best....she had the highest score on those aspects that gave more points) This only works if the criteria of the competition is clear...if the competition is more based on who dances better or who can do the most difficult tricks, for example. If it is a bit of both, how much of each or what they consider to judge that?? -Judges shouldnt judge their own students. (personally I disagree with this idea but that is for the community to decide. I am just getting together ideas I've red in this discussion. I don't think this is a problem unless one judge is proven to be unethical about it. It is normal that you will judge your student a bit better because you have seen her train but if someone was too out of judging criteria should be obvious for everybody else) -Athletes who have worked or work in the adult industry should be allowed to compete. (this one is a big problem in my country and one that brings a lot of issues and anguer because some girls are allowed if they know someone and others not. I didn't know it was a problem elsewhere. But it's easy to solve: there's no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to compete as long as the criteria of the competition is clear about not allowing performances that include the things -they would have to be clear about this things- they consider too related to the adult industry and that they don't want to see). -Perhaps if you discuss it you can decide on some things that you would like to ask the competition about so that they are clear. Not the things I've mentioned, I was just giving an example, but the things that are troubling a lot of people.It is not a complaint. It would be more like giving a voice to the community. And if there's no answer...well, then you know what to think of the competition for sure and you can decide with no doubts wether to accept it as it is or move on.
amy ·
@misslara-- as i said, i'm sure wendy is very busy. I am still hoping that she will respond to my last message, because in our back and forth she didn't address why an extension of the deadline was not publicly announced. @Robyn-- you're right-- organizers are usually given very little thanks, and it's a realy difficult job. and organizers should be given room to improve their events based on feedback. i think people are frustrated with USPDF in part becuse of the way that some things were handled last year (this is one person's account, to give you a sense of her opinion of some of the events that unfolded: http://www.unitedpoleartists.com/wheres-the-standards/) and there was a sentiment that USPDF was not responsive to concerns voiced by competitors. To me... this goes back to one of my concerns-- how is one to know about all the ethical violations and issues, unless it is openly discussed? i dont know anything about copyright violations surrounding a competition, or really even which competition you are talking about. I have heard vaguely about issues with Pole2Pole changing venues last minute, which is the only competition that came from the UK to the US that I'm aware of. You seem to be much more familiar with the details of all the wrongdoing. but you know-- I know peopel who competed in that! and i STILL never heard anything about the history of anything like what your'e describing. and i'm sure the people i know didn't, when they were applying. @ocuspocus, i think you have an interesting idea. i know that there are wheels turning to try to get together a group of people to create an ethics panel for competitions in the US, to come up with just such a list and try to hold organizations accountable to maintain certain ethical standards. i hope that it succeeds, because we could definitely use it.
amy ·
i have a few suggestions to add on to the list of ethical practices. does anyone else have ideas? -posting criteria/judging information and guidelines for submission videos in advance, with clear deadlines (listed by time zone, if applicable), and refusal of any submissions or submission fees after the deadline has passed -time before the competition for a complete run through on the rigging/apparatus to be used for the actual competition, especially if last minute changes are made -medical staff and supplies on site in case of an emergency -adequate warm up time continuous (immediately before) to when a competitor is actually expected to go on stage -a contract for each competitor that allows for them to openly discuss positive and negative aspects of the competition
amy ·
sorry, that link two posts up didn't go through right... it's here http://www.unitedpoleartists.com/wheres-the-standards/
Amy...none of that is new - it was all in place for Midwest last year. However I will say that full rehearsals is not always possible when a venue charges thousands of dollars and charges by the hour. To allow a full run through for all competitors may not be within everyone's budget. Also that isn't exactly related to ethics - it's just how it's organized.
To everyone...I'd also like to point out again that the Pole Dance Community has a code of conduct already in place. It's the second link down on this page: http://www.poledancecommunity.com/join-us/codes-of-conduct Why re-create the wheel when it's already been addressed. The question is how to encourage organizers to use it? Which is what the group Amy alluded to is going to be working on.
Anonyma ·
Same situation here in canada some people are tryin to control everything, create associations, blablabla blablabla like this situation when the miss pole canada couldnt be there physically to pass the crown, and they woudlnt give it to the first runner up then the first runner up won all the prizes...even best costume, when in fact other participants got wayyy better costume,,,,it s all biaised It pisses me off cause when I speak out about those situations, i know others think the same but wont say a word, and then I am the bad one, all the time
misslara ·
@Amy - these are great points, I definitely think you are the person to make it happen! I look forward to seeing the development of the ethics committee, please keep us posted on your work.
@MissLara...I'm actually on that committee...I will definitely fill everyone in and if anyone has any suggestions feel free to post them here or message me so that I can take it to the group when we meet next month!
@MissLara...I'm actually on that committee...I will definitely fill everyone in and if anyone has any suggestions feel free to post them here or message me so that I can take it to the group when we meet next month!
This is an interesting discussion. Obviously it's important to a lot of people or it wouldn't have received such a strong reaction. It shouldn't polarize the community so much though. I see both sides. I see the side of those that feel USPDF has been elusive in aspects. Why should it be forbidden to offer feedback or ask questions? Especially in cases where details have been hazy. I also see the side of the organization which has been one of the leading names in competitive pole dance for a reason. They offer women across the country an outlet to compete professionally and have given noticeable recognition to pole dancing. And as we have heard, it is not easy to create and run a competition. Do I think they are a perfectly run organization? No. Do I think there is some secretive reason behind the reason why? No. Do I think they should be open to feedback or questions as they are developing? Yes. Those on both sides need to take a step back and realize we are not so different in the outcomes we seek. I'm sure everyone in here can agree they would welcome a safe and fair competition that would promote pole dancing in a positive way. That "ideal" competition will take work and some tweaking. We are a brand new industry. But let's not assume the other side is on a witch hunt to take us down or a conniving powerhouse. What we need is an open dialogue. I'm sure once either side opens up in a non-defensive way they will see the other side more receptive to discussion. Maybe USPDF did not handle this competition or those past flawlessly. For example the deadline issue could have been more clearly expressed and when there was confusion should have been explained. This is still a hazy component in which an explanation is reasonable to ask for. I'm sure that issue won't happen next year though. I don't believe there were ill intentions behind the misinformation though. I really don't. And I think however messy it was in choosing the line-up, there will be some amazing dancers in this year's competition. I hope USPDF remains receptive to constructive feedback for improving competitions and communication with the public in the future. I also hope those bringing up those questions remain respectful and empathetic. Finally I will say this. We don't need to all agree to be peaceful. Opposite views are great! We need respect though. This respect has been broken on both sides here. Before we speak we should ALL be mindful of the power our words hold. Let's just try that way and see what happens. Then go from there.
amy ·
@empyrean-- i am not trying to claim that i'm coming up with new ideas, or say that these ethical guidelines are not followed already by any one competition. i appreciate that you feel strongly about midwest, and your event, being strong ethically, but i'm hoping that we can discuss problems that we've seen in other events, and how to help fix them. i'm offering suggestions for people to comment on and give feedback on, and come up with additional suggestions as a group. i think it's great that PDC hs come up with guidelines of their own, but i like the idea of organically, as a group, coming up with our own suggestions and seeing how they match and/or contrast (independently) with what another organization, or other peple, have come up with. some of the items that i put in my list, or what ocuspocus put in theirs, aren't in the PDCs, and are things that other competitors have brought up as concerns to me based on their experiences in events here in the US. @oliviaa, i'm sorry that you feel you ahve been attacked. i know how you feel. and it's hard to be sticking your neck out, and feel like you're being attacked for honesty. i think that in my experience with this USPDF issue, i've realized that while i had good intentions, sometimes, people read or interpret your messages in a way that you didn't necessarily intend or forsee and whether or not you have good intentions, you can still be hurtful and cause people to be defensive. but i think that if you see unethical behavior, you SHOULD speak up about it, if it is something that you cannot stand for. it's better to maintain your principles then to gloss over something that you think is important. @irmingard, i think you're right in that people tend to get defensive and offensive before thinking about really trying to reach a middle ground. i think we're all human, and we've all made a mistake liek that in the past. frustration can play a big role in that too. i do want to say that regardless of what happend with USPDF and whatever decisions they've made, no one is questioning the quality and talent in the competition. i hope that is true for everyone. and i am glad you brought up the point that we might need to navigate through differing opinions before coming to a better understanding. i really agreed with the status update that you posted a cuople days back, about how we as women tend to shy away from confrontation and conflict when those are not necessarily negative things, and when sometimes they are necessary to reach an understanding or affect change. things need to be kept respectful and i think the reason why feelings were so hurt is because that line was really crossed. i haven't gotten any more requets to post anything anonymously, so at least on my end, hopefully that won't happen again!
