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Unethical competitions
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Whatever happened to pole love..? I am going to be bold–leave it to me to be unconventional!
This discussion sounds so gossipy, with all the 'anonomyous' messages through someone else. And why is this happening on studioveena? I'm really shocked. https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_eek.gif
I would like to give a tremendous thanks to Karol Helms and Alethea Austin (among so many others) for giving us people to look up to, like the pole goddesses that you are. The amount of dedication you all pour out for us in workshops and performances, which I look forward to attend someday! And a super special thanks to our lovely Veena who has created such a positive environment, with quality guidence and dedication to all things that she also pours into this site daily.
I just don't see how much of this discussion is amounting to any resolution. It also seems a bit disrespectful, overal, but mostly to Studioveena where we like to come to support one another.
Amy, I really like your blog…this is a topic to continue in one of your discussions. Maybe then the anonymous people could feel more free to "let it out."
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Parts of this discussion I think NEED to get out there. WE are the ones who are the supporters of competitions. Yes, it is the competitors who make the competition but it is the pole community that is buying tickets and merchandise and pumping money into NY. This is a competition that is supposed to be showing THE WORLD what the US has to offer when it comes to Pole Dance. If there indeed is favoritism and bending of rules and incorrect scoring then these issues need to be brought up and we need to stand united as we face the people who put these competitions on. We need to let them know that their name alone is no longer good enough, they need to back their name with their actions.
As for the anonomyous messages, there are people who have competed in the past who have behind the scenes knowledge of things that have happened. They do not want to speak ill of any organization (so as not to be black listed) but at the same time they want to be heard. Amy stated that she would do something and even though she did not necessarily agree with a standpoint, she made a promise and kept that promise…..see what she did there? She gave her word and kept it.
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Every competitor won their right to be where they are. Hard work, love and dedication 🙂
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Every competitor won their right to be where they are. Hard work, love and dedication 🙂
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Every competitor won their right to be where they are. Hard work, love and dedication 🙂
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Though I am relatively new to pole, I have participated in my fair share of local figure skating competitions. I am not particularly interested in participating in a pole competition, but I do agree that USPDF is rather new.
I can recall a time when figure skaters would go to international competitions like the Olympics and be provided with inadequate ice quality to practice on while home country competitors would be treated with immensely better practice conditions.
I think the fact that USPDF submissions are in the form of PUBLIC YouTube videos gives an unfair advantage to late entrants and disadvantage to early entrants. In figure skating basic skills competitions, you compete with skaters at the level listed on your registration form. This level is defined by tests passed at USFSA sanctioned test sessions with qualified judges and clear requirements for passing. Is there some subjectivity? YES. It’s the very nature of such an artistic sport! The problem iswith that there are just so many things that are unregulated and unstandardized in pole dancing that it results in issues like this.
However, this is how organizations and competitions start out, and it is also why changes are made! Was figure skating always perfect and fair? No. But changes were periodically made as the sport evolved so that things could become more regulated and fair. Is it perfect? Of course not, and it certainly doesn’t always seem fair. However, I think USPDF should hear these types of concerns so guidelines can CLEARLY be laid out, unfair advantages/disadvantages can be eliminated, instructors can be properly certified, etc. -
Reading thi discussion I hace two things to say:
-I am personally a big Alethea austin fan. I understand that she is not the best and others can pull out more difficult tricks but she has become this much popular because she is UNIQUE. Her style is what made her one of the best and for what I've seen…millions want to dance like her, so they shouldn't complain about what she can't do if they want to do what she does…nobody can practice everything at the same time, either you focus on tricks or you focus on fluidity, everybody tries to do a bit of everything but you cannot expect anyone to be perfect in every performance. I don't care if she made mistakes in her performance. I've seen felix fall out of her spatchcock in a video, and I've seen that video of butterfly in zurich where she falls….they are still great!!! and their performances were great!!! my thoughts as regards those problems are: even the best fall in public. If I compete, it will happen to me too one day and even if I never get to be that great it will still happen to me one day (LOL). I think people should never lose respect for someone when somehting like this happens because it's natural and it will happen to all one day. If a competition is unfair it is not a dancer's fault….if you win a competition and people think it's unfair…what whould you do? say "oh no, thank you, i don't want the title, some others were better…"?? I don't think so. The issue is not competitors fault, it is the responsability of the organizers and judges.
-If submissions are out of deadline, they shouldn't be accepted. If the submission's dates are not clear….it is the organizer's fault! If a competition is unethical…there should be somehting we can do about it (even though I think there really isn't…everything is unethical in the world…of course sponsors will want their way, of course studios will support their people, etc) I think the community needs to be organized in a way that we can complain if something goes too out of hand in an unethical way. This would require that we organize a group of people to speak for the community and that is recognized by competitions…seems imposible right?? well, it's the only idea i have. I think that an ethical organization should protect competitions from nepotism but also protect competitors. I say this because I think someone who has already proven she deserves to be respected for her talent in the community should not have her career affected because of one performance. I've heard people say horrible things about felix like "she always does the same. I bet she can't do other tricks" (come on, really???that's ridiculous. her signature moves are not the only great things she does) or when the video of butterfly in zurich came out I've heard a lot of people who are very important here in Argentina (not that the world cares about what we think about pole dancing here but still it hurt me) saying horrible things about her…this is wrong and unethical too. I think once a competitor has showed what she can do she should be respected and allowed to continue her career but still there should be a chance for new girls too. Otherwise, competitions start getting unethical….but we can complain about it or we can do something. If the community does not agree with the way things are, there should be initiative to organize something different.
I think this discussion was very interesting because it's really important to fight to keep the community ethical. And if competitions are unethical it affects the community because it affects the carreers of pole dancers, instructors and students who feel dissapointed by all this. In Argentina we have huge problems because of this, there is one studio who runs the only comeptition there is and you cannot raise a complaint about anything because they can destroy your career. I want get into all the bad things that happen here in the pole community but I will say that unethical competitions are a big issue for the community and not competing is not a solution, but criticizing the winners is not a solution either. If we want a solution let's look for an ethical solution. That's the point; right??
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I do appreciate this being an ongoing discussion. @amy I didn’t mean that you were trying to create drama with this thread, I think it’s important people vent their current frustrations and everyone’s thoughts about what is upsetting them over the issue of what they feel is unethical about certain competitions. I wanted to suggest that since everyone has been willing to state their stance that someone be proactive and compile a list in a letter addressing all the issues expressed and present it to the USPDF (clearly at this point from my understanding this is Wendy?) I understand she is one person running a business, organization, and planning for an event-that she couldn’t possibly have much time to browse online and come across this thread, let alone read every person’s post on this forum. I suspect she may have heard about the issue as USPDF fan page posted a video recently on Facebook breaking down scoring of a recent competitor’s performance and the competition’s criteria so clearly there must be some knowledge on the other side of the debate. I think it would be best someone stepped forward and took the time to put all the concerns together in an organized manner and presented it to USPDF. Whether or not the issues are addressed, the mere fact that the actions of the community doing their part to be heard and send their thoughts directly will leave the ball in their court. I personally don’t think questions will be answered which is very unfortunate. I think actions speak louder than words. If everyone wants to see changes then appropriately stating your concerns for proper addressing is the best way to negotiate change. At least we can say we acted rather than just venting here and hoping someone important will read what we have say. It’s unfortunate people involved in the competitions are feeling attacked and hurt or even being attacked at all. This argument shouldn’t even be about them. The issue is regarding competitions and whether or not people feel they are ethical. Things were made too personal when names were mentioned and competitors were thrown in for scrutiny-which we all know was not Amy’s intent when she created this discussion. (If anyone decides to write up a letter, please post a draft for everyone else to see and agree to.)
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Wow, this was fascinating to read.
I love Althea Austin – I loved that routine that was posted, and although there were a few minor slipups, she recovered brilliantly. Considering the dislocated knee thing as well – amazing. I don't know what the other competitors were like, I don't know who else was there, I don't know if she deserved to win – just sayin' I loved that routine.
This reminds me somewhat though of gymnastics competitions. Again, I don't have much knowledge in the field, having never been a gymnast myself, but I know that there are discrepancies with the marking system there. (There was also that movie – Stick It about this).
I think it's important for people to voice their opinions because that's the only way things will ever change. But bad-mouthing competitors and organisers does nothing to achieve this. I feel that if you want to complain you need to have an alternative in mind. If you think the voting system is wrong, then maybe suggest to the organisers via mail different ways to change it? Like Annieloo said about ice skating, it's an artistic sport and there will always be bias, but getting on a soapbox and complaining about something does nothing except spread ill-feelings.
And in pole, we need to stick together and support eachother.
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Let me ask a question.
If the organizer has been contacted, and has discussed an ethical violation and acknowledged their actions but refuses to admit wrongdoing, THEN what? Do we boycott the competition? Is that realistic? Do we merely do our best to publicize the actions of the organization, in hopes that the negative publicity will get the word out? In a culture where people don’t want to discuss this awkwardness, will that really happen? Will that continue to hurt the feelings of the competitors?
What Corby said earlier is what is bothering me the most: you can research a competition all you want, but you can’t necessarily research BIAS. a year from now, competition hopefuls who I don’t know, who haven’t read any of this, will spend time and money submitting again.
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I think that in that instance, yes publicity is the way to go.
Provided it's not badmouthing previous competitors or other indviduals who have not had anything to do with the ethical violation themselves.
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Untill yesterday, I had NO idea there was any contraversy surrounding the USPDF. I was merely a potential finalist. I was surprised to hear everything that people feel.
I have been poling for 7 years, so long ago before YouTube had connected us or Veena's forum. I have been poling for so long that I had even thought I created many moves like the back hook spin, figure four invert, monkey climb(ha). I had never seen anyone do the moves I was doing. Back then, as a single mother raising her baby, I could not afford one more bill. I constantly had months at a time without the cable. It has only been in the last few years that I even had the time to jump on a computer and do anything besides work or send an email.
So in 2010 when I had heard of the USPDF I was very excited. I went and watched with awe. I took just one amazing brilliant class with Jessalynn Medairy. I was so happy that I had people who were actually a bit MORE advanced than me. I couldn't believe people had other ways to climb! Lo!. They had direction and were skilled in offering growth. Pole has become a part of me as important as my skin! I need it to keep me together. When I watched that performance, I thought man I could never compete. It got me all nervous, even though I had been hired for 4 yrs already at that time to perform at top venues. Take our skills and go against another male/female to be judged seemed scary.
While watching the performance, we witnessed someone fall. Bad. The audience gasped. All anyone thought was I wish that they are ok! No one was bitter b/c of it. We cheered when she got up! Have you watched Alethea's performance? Have you ever tried to do even one move in hand cuffs? That vid is bad ass! It was a platform for us all to watch and grow from. It sparked us to be creative and use the pole to connect with our expression of dance.
So this leads me to now, with the title of unethical competitions. I am glad that people voiced their opinions. If we don't voice that we want change, it would always be assumed that it was perfect as is. Companies ask for suggestions simply so they can make changes and review policies. I will still continue to apply to competitions, because for me I am growing on my pole journey. I want to get out there and grow. I got into another comp this weekend.In the pole community, we are "itching" to do anything pole. We love getting together and meeting up with others who love pole! We are a pole family. Its expected we get on each others nerves or argue at times, but lets get our voices out in a way where it is organized and w/ a point. If its If its change we want lets figure out what changes need/want to be made.
On the matter of late submissions, I don't think they should have been accepted. I have been training since Feb. to be at this level now. It doesn't seem fair. Its as if "sally: and "suzy" saw who had applied and said oh I'm gonna submit too. There were even girls who have competed and won the USPDF who tried to get something in by the deadline was a lil late and said so. Had she submitted late, maybe the line up would be. It is up to the potential competitor to search for comps and if they miss it-hey u missed your chance at this one. Move on. There will always be another comp to enter. I am also in one soon. Its got a great cash prize. The guy who put it together has plans of making it better every year. I am not telling everyone about it b/c as a competitor I want to win! Its just the name of the game.
I almost didn't say anything. In fact I erased what I wrote several times.I thought I'd be "blacklisted" from comps or something. I do think its important to let those who keep saying we shouldn't support those comps know how important it is just how much growth we gain from them. They allow a platform for people of all walks of life to come together. All of us have talent. I am always learning from others in this community, even from beginners sometimes. I also need the practice of competing. It is nerveracking. Only one way to get past that and grow::compete.The competitor NEEDS venues large or small.
Once the community hears about comps than we can make it better. The LeHigh Valley Competitionis on this weekend. It started as an idea. Voiced on the internet. Now even Michelle Stanek heard about it. It's her hometown so she is now judging.
One idea=Growth.
Thank you USPDF, Veena, internet,pole and for our "bothers and sisters" as one Veener put it!
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I am definitely not a pro, or even an awesome amateur, but having competed in pole competitions and judged a pole competition, I just want to put out there that since humans are humans, there will always be some kind of bias in juding.
I won a local pole competition in 2011. It was incredibly poorly planned–as in, at first, we were told we needed routines, then we were told it would be freestyle, and the night of the competition, suddenly routines were wanted. I am not blaming the organizers either, as I think the venue imposed some sudden rules on the competition or something. It was a mess all the way around. I had not made up a routine as I actually hadn't been planning on competing, but on the night of, the organizer asked again if I wanted to join as some girls had dropped out, so I said yes.
The competition itself was terrible. It was at a local watering hole on an X-Stage. I stood from about 10 pm to almost 1 am in my eight inch heels. The competitiors were not asked to perform once–we had to perform five or six times each, and from what I could tell, we were all freestyling.
I ended up winning the competition, and there were definitely whispers that it was rigged, or that it had almost been rigged, or that I shouldn't have won. I have no idea how the comp could have been rigged for me, sincd I wasn't even going to compete until the night of the competition. I'm not saying I should have or shouldn't have won first place. My performance wasn't perfect, but no one had a perfect performance that night. We all slipped up at least once (this is the nature of competition–you know how nervous you get when you flip on your camera and start recording yourself poling? Now, multiply that feeling by a hundred cameras); plus, you just can't control every factor that makes for a sticky pole, especially when, like me, you don't use grip.
Anyway, I don't think I was any better or any worse than most of the other girls. Some others did some crazier tricks; there was definitely a girl who had better stage presence, etc. I think that for those judges, maybe I just had a little bit of everything and that's why I won. That's the thing–judges are human. You will have one that appreciates fluidity and another that prefers a gymnastic-like approach to the pole, and since both are viable styles, they are going to judge girls differently. Even having score cards with every category meticulously laid out doesn't help. Judges are human! At the competition I judged, I had to stop myself from marking up a girl's costume and appearance score because I thought she was just adorable–but when I really looked closely, she hadn't done anything special with her makeup, hair, or costume. I had to change my score to reflect reality, not my holistic view of her performance. And as a college instructor, I think it is at least slightly easier for me to be objective–I've graded a lot of essays and used a lot of different rubrics over the last five years.
So, to boil down this loooong post, I just want to say that a competition performance is not the same as a performance filmed on the comfort of your home pole or studio poles. And judges are human, and they often already know what they like. So, while I agree that this is a good discussion to have, I think everyone deserves a ton of leeway as we navigate these new waters. If people express their concerns in a postive, non-judgmental way, everyone will feel more comfortable with any changes that are made.
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Fever, I get your point and I agree. Bias is human. But competition organizers can do a couple simple things to minimize bias. For example: not allowing judges to judge their own students, or people from their studio…. dropping highest and lowest scores from the judges. There are a lot of options! WE can shape how our industry grows.
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Of course bias is human nature. Even if we don't realise that's what we're being.
But that being said – there's a massive difference between inadvertently scoring someone you know an extra point or two and allowing submissions after the cut off date.
(I'm not too sure about what's happened with this whole thing so I won't elaborate on that point).
As well, when it's a national competition and not just a local one, there needs to be guidelines and procedures in place to ensure that bias isn't playing a major role in deciding the outcome – especially when the prize is so big. Telling the organisers the problems you have is definitely a step in the right direction – it's the only way they'll know to change.
Publicity is also amazing. Like what has already been said, you can research comps before you enter them.
I don't think though that with thins on this scale that trying to organise a boycott would work…even if 20 excellent dancers said they wouldn't perform, there would still be 20 more to take their place. (even if they're at a different level). And then everyone misses out because it's not the best competing.
Can someone quickly explain for me the process for USPDF? From what I gather from the comments – you submit a video and it gets uploaded to youtube? And from those someone? decides who should go into the "competition"?
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