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Unethical competitions
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I also wanted to add on the matter of late submissions that it just desn't matter. Those individuals pushed limits. Because of it, they got in! Congrats to them. They also played the game. You don't know unless you ask, or try, or submit anyway. (and for the record, I don't know which people r late). I don't care enough to know or have the time to figure it out.
(I take back the "move on" part I had b/c all they did was "play" differently. I too push limits sometimes in hopes of a chance or a fair shake.
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Yes, agreed. It's good to ask questions and it's good to discuss the issue. I also agree that there are some simple ways to combat human nature in judging (the ones Amy listed are great), although we will never fully eradicate the biased and visceral nature of judgement.
I'm just reiterating that these competitions are still in their infancy and there will be growing pains! This is the way competitions become more stable–obstacles are thrown into the path of the organizers; the organizers climb up and over (or around) them. The organizers might look back and not be happy with how they handled the problems this year, but next year, after this uproar, I bet they'll know how to handle a situation if it reoccurs!
All of these issues are just providing templates for organizers to do better next time. I agree that there will be no change if people don't speak up. I just think it's important that even while discussing the issue, we never attribute to malice what can be attributed to ignorance (and I don't mean that as an insult–I mean ignorance as in encountering new situations and making decisions on the fly, as competition organizers must often have to do).
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@tallicachild
For USPDF you upload a video to youtube with a specific heading and email the link with your application to USPDF. Last year it was allowed to be subitted privately, but this year it had to be a "public" video on youtube or facebook.
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Some events have very strict guidelines and some do not. You have to know what the expectations are of the organizer. It's impossible to eliminate bias as we are all human but you can do a few things to curb it. As judges you cannot always agree. Things like showmanship and musicality, etc may be affected by a judges personal preference in SOME way.
I don't know how USPDF runs but for our first year last year I had already taken my lessons from past competittions. Here are few things to expect from Midwest/North American Nationals which seemed to be most important (either good or bad) to others. It doesn't mean I disrespect how other comps are run – it's just what I expected of our own.
1. Real names are used. No stage names.
2. Videos are EXACTLY a certain length…you cannot enter a longer video and ask to only watch a certain portion
3. All scores are counted…we do not throw out the high and low
4. No judges were allowed from the Midwest to avoid potential bias
5. Videos and application cannot be submitted even ONE minute late or they are disqualified.
6. All elements are scored equally so someone with great showmanship may outdo someone with better tricks. We wanted it to be more about the OVERALL performance not the best trixster. So you could potentially see a mistake or see someone not as advanced win or place.
7. Once you submit an online video you can have no contact with online judges until judging is over. If you are accepted you cannot train with any final judges until after the comp.
8. All judges are pole experienced with a wide variety of pole backgrounds…tricksters to showgirls, to traditional dance experience.
This year since we are adding nationals…if a judge has a student or instructor in the comp then that judge does not judge ANYONE from that division. However I need to stress that since our pole world is still so small it's impossible to find ALL judges that have not trained someone in the competition.
This year we are adding that if finalists are late with any important deadlines prior to the comp (like music choice, order of compulsory moves, etc) they will lose one point for every day they submit something late. We feel that this reflects their professionalism as well as it affects others who may have submitted these things on time but didn't necessarily feel ready and would have liked more time themselves.
We tried to come up with as fair of a comp as we could. How could I accept someone who was 20 minutes late with their vid and then deny someone who was 4 hours late…then the person who was 12 hours late? How do I make that decision when I set a deadline. Some people did not like how strict I was about this but I couldn't feel fair if I made the allowance for one and not others. Some competitions do not take such a strict stance.
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I'd like to add/remind that you should not only research the event organizers but research the judges. I think you CAN research bias! I could be wrong but most people who have worked with me or entered my comp know that I am as far from bias as possible and you can find that out by talking to past competitors of the competition.
FYI: I do not judge any element of my online rounds or the finals. But I do gather the scores and total them. Someone could definitely accuse me of adding them up falsely if they wanted. Hopefully my actions in all other areas of this event would tell people I don't do such things but you can't fullproof everything.
I also forgot: All score sheets are given to applicants from online rounds and to finalists from the comp but they are not posted publicly and scores are not posted. Everyone knows where they placed in the line up but only the top three from the finals are posted online.
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I have attended the past 2 years of USPDF. I absolutely LOVE LOVE LOVE watching the show which is why I travel so far to get there. That is why I wish so much it was a showcase!! Everything is great until people hear the results and then leave with a sour taste in their mouths. I don’t know Wendy but she seems to be a well spoken lady whenever she does interviews. She seems to be capable of addressing any concerns the public has… but we haven’t seen much response to any concern over the years. Last year I think east coast maybe, or maybe nationals, I can’t remember, but there was drama over the number of girls entered. There was supposed to be 12 and they had an online vote but still only took 11… or something I can’t really recall… anyway no one ever got a formal statement from USPDF as to why that all happened. There seems to always be drama surrounding uspdf every single time over SOMETHING. I’ve begun to expect some drama with every competition. It doesn’t have to be that way. I know everything is in its infancy, but these things seem like things that could be addressed, could be explained, and they’re just not. If uspdf would explain things/scores or make statements perhaps we would not have to have these discussions on studioveena with everyone speculating about every little thing. As for the submission deadlines, I have no idea about that. Wasn’t really following that aspect but I heard who got in and I am VERY VERY pleased that Tracee was accepted. She is phenomenal !! I just wish all these competitions could be showcases where each performer gets a flat fee. Like $2,000 per girl or something I don’t know…It’d be fun for all and profitable for the girls!! Won’t happen, but just a rainbows & butterflies kinda idea. And I do know there is value in having competitions. People can have titles, medals, notoriety, it’s all good. Competition occurs in every sport. . Last year I felt there was a major judging error in the pro comp and thought maybe I was missing something or didn’t know what the criteria was… so I asked a bunch of people after the pro competition what they thought. Literally everyone I talked to was very confused about the judging. I didn’t find a single person there or online later who thought it was fair. It made us feel like we, the audience, were not respected as a community. Like the judges didn’t care about the audience opinion and were going to do what they wanted. So several girls I talked to agreed they wouldn’t pay to attend the competition next year. I actually emailed one of the judges myself, took it to the source. We emailed a couple times back and forth and it basically left on a note of “we agree to disagree”. On another note I am very pleased to see the videos finally coming out from the competitions. Michelle, Nadia, Mina, etc… all stunning… and I must admit, was even more stunning being there in person.
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I know you were joking but $2000 to perform in a showcase! Wow! I'd sign up and I hate getting on stage! LOL.
Let me tell you that for those of us breaking into our first couple of years of a comp it's very difficult to fund these events. Sponsor do NOT give over money. Many of them want to give product as prizes to finalists and have that count as sponsoring the event. So we rely mostly on ticket sales – which in our case did not cover the cost of our event and we actually lost money out of our own pockets last year!
But yes, we are doing it again this year and hoping that our second year will be better!
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I should clarify: "Sponsors do NOT give over money EASILY!"
We don't get huge checks from the sponsors we have to fund most of it ourselves from the proceeds of the event.
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Out of curiosity, of what benefit would it be for the judges to be "biased" in a pole competition? And, if there was bias due to studio affiliation, don't you think the outcome of the last few competitions would have been far different? Consider carefully the accusations you're making; personal accusations attacking the integrity judges plus the talent and worthiness of performers. And, in my humble opinion, the pole community should be grateful to have judges from outside of the pole community but with extensive dance, aerial & competitive experience. Don't you think that might prevent the bias that you somehow feel runs rampant in the USPDF competitions?
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@empyrean, you just haven't found the right sponsers out there if they wouldn;t fork it over!
If skateboarding, dirtbiking, and playstation comps can award someone 5-50,000…than why not in pole? WE ARE worth it!
@powertwirl, like your thinking-it was mine when I first heard about it too back in the day!
Also the USPDF had a few people drop due to injury the year we watched and just heard it for 2009 too.
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Organic Angel – we've tried for sponsors outside the pole community and so far have had poor responses from them. Sponsors within the pole community often can/will only give smaller sums and product in lieu of money.
Part of the problem is there aren't that many pole product companies and they are all stretched among a large number of events and competitions and can't cover them all. Then non-pole companies are not quite ready to step into the sponsor shoes for pole competitions unless they are the really big ones. Not to say you can't get non-pole sponsors for pole comps but just that it's not that easy.
My main point was to let people know we don't get a ton of money just because we have a half dozen or a dozen sponsors when the cost of a huge event like this is THOUSANDS of dollars. Last year we ran nearly $25,000 in expenses – this year will be much more.
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keex, this bias has been addressed here and on facebook. One bias is letting people in who were late and did not follow the rules for their video. This shows bias that they "wanted" certain epople in the competition for one reason or another. The second bias comes from who they actually want to represent their organization for the next year. If you ahve 2 very similar scores and perfromance presence but you have one person who is more outgoing than the other you would favor the more outgoing person to be your representative. This is actually part of your score in some of the international competitons. As soon as you step on site they start judging how you are dressed, how you act in public, even as far as swearing. This was also the reason that APFC put a rule regarding exotic dancers basically not being able to work while they held the crown.
I am pretty positive that there are girls in the competition who train at NYPD. Do you not think there would be bias as to training or to even scoring that person higher even if they slip up because you know their potential?
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@chemgoddess1: I know nothing about late submissions. I simply watched some of the video submissions and was left in awe at all the talent. What a tough job it must be picking the competitors!
And, as for girls that train at NYPD… how many of them have actually won a USPDF title? But dancers/instructors from "competitive" studios in NYC have won (rightfully earned) titles. And think about this: if what you're saying is true, why would the USPDF want a dancer from a "competitive" studio to represent them for a year? For the record, Wendy (owner of NYPD and Co-Founder of USPDF, which are 2 separate business entities) has absolutley nothing to do with the judging process.
And what does one's personality beyond the the context of their performance have to do with the judges' scores…? That's ludacris!
Some of these assumptions and accusations within the community are so unfounded and baffling that I simply have to step away from the discussion. In my experience, this type of "discussion" on facebook and StudioVeena has never been productive; simply a divisive and a sad commentary on the true state of the pole "community". (The exact opposite energy that appealed to me about the "pole community" in the first place.)
Peace & Pole, y'all. PEACE & POLE.
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keex- I am not just referring to USPDF. I am summarizing many of the things I ahve read regarding competiotns that have been going on and issues that have come up. Go back through and read all of the threads regarding competitons (there is even some in this thread regarding the Australiand and Argentinian competitions).
And the comment regarding scoring is for Worlds. I am trying to find where I had originally linked the scoring parameters as I cannot seem to find it on their site any more. I want to say 10-20% of your scvore is based on how you represent yourself and how you represent pole.
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thanks keex- a wise conclusion. until all the chatty cathy's actually contact the USPDF to get real facts, theyre fabricating their own assumptions about how things are run.
I know aerial amy received responses from Wendy regarding several of her questions, I hope she has or will decide to share those with the pole "community." I hope any other unanswered questions by anyone else will be directed to the USPDF, not forum friends.
I was excited to have an opportunity to perform at USPDF. While the intention of this so claimed "discussion" was to promote progress, it has inadvertently caused competitiors to feel like they were unfairly selected, seeming to diminish their worthiness to perform. It may not have been anyone's intention, but it was a natural result.
I have no respect for anonymous posts, or individuals that fear reaching out to an organization to receive answers. this should be the most obvious solution, instead of gossiping in online forums. there's explanations for all of USPDF decisions. they may not be obvious right now, but running a competition can't be easy, and covering all the bases takes time. those that feel they can run a better competition should take $80,000 of their personal funds and start their own competition. there is NO money to be made in running a competition right now.
I'm very saddened by a lot of the commentary I've read over the past few days, a disappointing representation of this supposed community that's working to improve pole dancing's reputation.
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