[Cinara]

Solsticedark, it's funny: I feel the same way about spotting that you do about grip aids! I would never ever use a spotter. Yet, plenty of people believe in spotting new moves and if it works for them, cool.

Just for the fun of debate:

I guess the thing for me is, I have sweaty hands (and shins, shoulders, sides and legs in anything but mid-winter). Without antiperspirant grip aids the pole actually feels (and sometimes looks) wet (gross I know). So I would say that me not having grip aids is like someone without such sweaty hands gripping a wet pole. If you can't do a move on a wet pole (or hey, even a greased pole) does that mean you can't do it?

I guess it becomes a question of where you draw the line: At what degree of friction could you say someone can truly do a move? And if we were to somehow measure the friction between someone's hand and the pole, would all people and poles be equal? Does one person using iTac 4 equal one person's Tite Grip, equal one person's nothng at all? 

And there's the fact that weightlifters and gymnasts use grip aids and gloves/grips. And golfers, tennis players, plenty of other sports are fine with it too. From an aesthetic standpoint gloves might not go with some forms of poledancing (although pole-fitness focussed stuff suits them), but other than that, why is pole any different from any other physical activity that relies on grip? (Just being rhetorical).

No grip aid is so good that it would "glue" you to the pole (that I know of!). I personally don't use anything with tack in it (except shaving gel on my legs on cold dry winter days) because I sweat through it and it makes the pole even more slick. But I don't think compensating for my sweaty hands by applying Tite Grip before a routine is in any way cheating. 

Just debating for fun 🙂

[Cinara]

Please note this is just my personal opinion. How soon you might need grip aids is very individual. The way to tell if you need them is if you're holding the pole as tightly as possble, but sliding down. If it's your grip loosening over time (as in, you can hold onto the pole for a second, but then slip), or you can feel your grip getting looser or your fingers peeling off the pole one by one, then it's a strength or endurance issue, and a grip aid won't help. (Same thing applies to leg grip). If you are having none of these problems, you probably don't need a grip aid yet. I'm sure there are some people out there who never use grip aids at all.

If the first problem is happening for you (grip stays tight, but you'restill sliding) that could either be due to your skin (too sweaty or too dry) or not enough grip strength or most likely, both. In my opinion both problems can be improved by grip aids. Some people say not to use grip aids early on or else you'll become reliant on them and not build grip strength. On the other hand (pun not intended), if, like me, you're sliding so much you can't even do anything on the pole, you are not going to be on the pole long enough to build grip strength in the first place. If it wasn't for my Tite Grip, I would never have built my grip strength at all.

The other things to think about with becoming dependent on grip aids are whether you're willing to pay for them (although I'm not sure how expensive they are outside of my ridiculously expensive city) and also how often you need to refresh them. If all you want to do is learn some tricks in the comfort of your own home, it's probably not a big deal to be wiping your hands and applying a grip aid in between each move. If you want to do full routines, you need to be able to pole for at least five minutes without replenishing (ideally you should be able to last for longer than your routine, so getting through the routine is a cinch).

As for the inverted V, I learnt it at my seventh ever pole lesson, and it didn't cause me any injuries. (Learning a cradle spin too early did though, so beware).However, learning an inverted V so soon meant I learnt with poor technique that I'm still trying to unlearn. On the other hand, maybe you're an olympic gymnast/amazon goddess and it's easy for you. This is all assuming that we're all thinking of the same inverted V.

[Cinara]

From what I understand, almost all your weight should be taken by your top hand. The bottom hand is only there  to hold your body in position or away from the pole. If you're straining your elbow it could be because your top arm isn't able to take enough weight. The thing that helps me is working on one-handed spins to build my strength in supporting myself. I'm sure other people will have some more specific advice, though. Hope that helps 🙂

[Cinara]

I'm with you in struggling on 50mm poles. Personally, I don't find a huge difference in hand grip between 38mm and 45mm.  As for leg grip, 45mm and 50mm feel about the same to me, and 38mm was a bit more difficult to grip with my legs before I got used to it. 

One of my studios has just bought some 45mm brass poles, but they're not installed yet, otherwise I could give you some more advice on them.

[Cinara]

Unfortunately the best way to deal with the pain of a superman is just to do it over and over and over again. You can try the beginner* way to get into it (invert, handstand, slide legs down, reach one hand behind you, then you're in a superman an arm's length from the floor. If you're on a spinning pole, you can then push yourself around and play with your legs). Try adding this to routines and freedance, because the performance aspect may help distract you from the pain, and you can get into it more easily while building tolerance.

I have no idea of your relative thigh size from a picture, but I found what really helped me and my large thighs was to grip the pole about halfway down my thigh, rather than right at the top. If I try to grip at the top, my leg gets "stuck" on the pole mid-flip, and my hand ends up too low. So maybe play around with where your thighs grip. Maybe superman has a "sweet spot" just like the knee hold?

(By the way, by "beginner" I mean beginner at learning superman, not pole in general!)

[Cinara]

Cool! I'm trying to visualise, and I think that's exactly the same as a closed rainbow like in my avatar. But I think I'll have to actually do it to know for sure.

[Cinara]

Oh yeah, I do straigten my bottom leg as well, forgot to mention. But now I want to try a CKR with two bent legs. Does that work?

[Cinara]

I totally second akkis! The way I do it is to get into a regular cross-legged pole sit, hold onto the pole with my hands as well and then just kind of tilt my pelvis until my "knee clevage" is against the pole. Then it's snug and secure and I can lean back.

[Cinara]

Thanks for the input! E is what I really want to put, and I certainly hope I'm allowed. (You know how deep down you already know what you want to do, but don't want to admit it until you see people agree with you? Just me?)

If I have to pick one, the studio running the comp is probably the most wise, but I just remembered  there's a section where you write a little introductory blurb about yourself to be read out on the night, and I can at least give everyone a shout out in my blurb!

[Cinara]

Okay, this is just a general opinion, and while it was prompted by Polefit's comment, that was just what reminded me, not what I'm really arguing against. Pole twin, you know I think you're awesome.  I'm mainly putting this here to give my perspective and hopefully help sensualscimitar with making judgement calls and student retention.

I'm sure for a lot of people it's true that poor grip strength is just a sign of poor strength over all. But honestly, if someone had insisted on making that kind of judgement call with me, I would have been straight out of their studio. I have not-great grip strength (never have), combined with very sweaty hands (which for some reason people with dry hands seem to think don't exist). Well, actually I have sweaty everything even in winter, butd I don't know how I can improve the grip strength of  the soft section next to my shin bone for a better knee hold.

Here's the thing: I can only do upright split grip and single hand grip work on spin mode when the pole is cold, but as soon as it or I warm up I can't grip any more. But, I have the strength for air shoulder mounts, ayshas in all grips (except Chinese…yet), one handed bow and arrows and I'm only about 15 degrees from an iron x. So does my lack of hand grip really mean I should still be doing scoprios and geminis over and over and over because I'm not "ready?"

Sometimes I feel like there's this little bit of exclusivity where people say "If x happens, you're not ready to progress, if you have x problem, you're not ready to progress." By some people's standards I should not be inverting at all! But, I do invert, maybe a hundred times a week and the sky has not fallen in, and my injury rate is the lowest of any physical activity I've ever done.

And sometimes, the "you're clearly not ready" comes across as condescending (this is other threads and forums, not this here!). It seems like a way of keeping new polers on the outside, by constantly jumping in to tell them they're not good enough to belong. (Polefit, I know you weren't saying anything like that at all, I was just reminded of others doing it).

And for some reason, sweaty hands (if people even concede that they exist) and poor grip strength are the biggest targets. Do people say the same thing about poor upper thigh grip? Getting dizzy on spin mode? Not having basic acrobatics skills like cartwheels, handstands and backward rolls on the floor? Because I have never had any of those problems, and can't even really relate to them, simply due to having the good fortune of having large thighs, vestibular hyposensitivity and over 20 years of gymnastics and similar sports experience. Still, I don't think that people who get dizzy or queasy on spinning poles really should work on their aerial awareness before they even think of learning advanced tricks on static. I think they should just learn what's right for them on each pole. 

I do grip strength exercises every night, I ignore the people who tell me that using antiperspirant grip aids is "cheating" (using grip aids is the only way I can get enough grip to actually build my strength until my fingers and forearms ache) and I force myself to work on poles that I have so much trouble gripping it causes physical pain (50mm spinning chrome in humidity!) . But if someone were to look at me and say that I'm not allowed to try skills I know I'm perfectly capable of doing, I would leave that studio and never come back (after crying for an hour, but that's just me).

But by the same token, I know others would be fine, or even prefer that approach and they are certainly welcome to keep attending this hypothetical studio!

[Cinara]

It depends how ruthless you are about your business. If you want to guarantee no one will leave you for another pole studio, go with 38mm brass. No one is going to want to lose 50% of their progress at another studio because they suddenly can't grip.

If you're not quite so mercenary and you want students who have the opportunity to compete, travel and be versatile, 50mm  chrome is probably better. (Having said that, I know people who have trained on 50mm chrome and can't grip narrower poles, but I guess that is only an issue in 2 states of Australia…)

I might avoid getting a different pole from your students though, not for any logical reason it just stirkes me as odd. Still, maybe they will just assume that your pole gets a special colour because you're a special teacher

[Cinara]

Yeah, considering there are only 5 compulsory moves, an iguana mount seems like an odd choice, but maybe that's the challenge.

Good luck with your comp and hopefully you can post a video! You'll be awesome! 

[Cinara]

Ooh, that is pretty. Maybe I can get my hamstrings that flexible and my shoulders that strong. Also, that's a seriously awesome Jenyne video. I just took a page of notes on it. She is so creative!

[Cinara]

Good to know some people can do it without hands, I know I couldn't! And obviously you wouldn't be pushing up with your hands instead of your legs, but I assumed anyone who can do a caterpillar knows that. Still, I would think taking both hands off would be advanced. It's always safer to have more points of contact when you learn. 

[Cinara]

I'm fairly sure you don't ever hold on with just your knees in a caterpillar climb. You always have 1 hand on as well. It's basically caterpillar up, straight edge, caterpillar up, straight edge. Just trying to visualise but I think you slide your bottom hand up, use that to hold on to the pole while you let go with your elbow and bend your knees to pull yourself up the pole, then regrasp with your elbow. Then you release your legs into a straight edge, clamp them around the pole and repeat. (I hope that's right, but if not I'm sure someone will correct.  I'm just trying to remember because I have too many pulled muscles to actually do it right now. But I know you never grip with just your legs.)

You want to have a fairly solid elbow grip straight edge, because you're going to be doing this at increasing heights, where you can't just cartwheel down if you overbalance.

I fall all the time and with one exception haven't been hurt. I fall alot because I don't feel much fear, I know how to fall, I push myself too hard and I have very slippery hands (and possibly because I lack common sense). The one time I hurt myself is the first time I tried a Rainbow, and learned the hard way that you probably shouldn't try to transition to a basic invert from there. I basically lost all contact with the pole and was slipping head first. Luckily I have enough falling experience to do a bit of damage control, and managed to protect my head by landing hands first and then coming onto my knees. It would have been fine, just bruised knees if I hadn't landed with the top of my tibia right on the corner of the base of the pole. And also if I didn't ignore the injury and keep poling. Turned out to be a chipped bone. 

I think the best thing to do is figure out exactly why you fell, and make sure you don't do that same thing again. Then, you have to try the thing you fell on again, but be more careful if need be. So in your case I would practice some invert moves you know you can do, and help build your confidence. Then work on having a good, confident caterpillar and straight edge. Make sure you know you're using the right technique, and when you feel confident you can try it again, with mats and spotters or absolute silence, or whatever will help you feel confident.

As for preventing falls, always figure out your next points of contact and test them tentatively before relying on them. In other words, add additional points of contact before you take some away. Even holly drops and superman drops can be done this way in the early stages. Extra contact points mean that if you get tangled, or confused, or slip you have as much contact with the pole as possible. Worst case scenario is pole burn. If you do feel you're about to slip, just grip everything as tight as you can, and stay still for a second to figure out how you can get down.

Practice sliding down a pole in pose, maybe peeling off one limb and moving it down an inch, then doing the same with the next limb all the way to the floor. It will build strength and aerial awareness too. It also got me out of a sticky situation once when my foot got trapped somehow and I got stuck upside down on a spinning pole going way too fast 2 meters above a hard wood floor. I kind of crawled down the pole inch by inch until my shoulders touched the floor. And people laughed. Which was probably fair.