[StellarMotion]

I use the twisted grip and I don’t mind talking about it. I have experienced some pains as the result of using the twisted grip which have kept me off of the pole for days at a time. Part of this is the physical awkwardness of the position itself, and part of it has been negligence on my own part. But I have also caused myself certain pains by doing other moves like the cartwheel mount. I think any move can be dangerous or harmful for someone whose musculature isn’t prepared for it in terms of strength and flexibility, and even the very strong and very flexible can hurt themselves by trying advanced moves without being warmed up adequately first.

Here are some things I like about the twisted grip. I will preface this by saying I only like twisted grip after I am inverted. But once I am inverted, the grip feels more natural and seems less taxing on the wrist and elbow of my top bracket than does the split grip (or cartwheel mount). In addition to this, it offers a lot more control over the aerial movement done in inverted holds. Also, I feel like the twisted grip allows me to hold my torso straighter without the odd sideways-bowing that I have found characteristic of the split grip in inversions. Lastly, I really like that this grip offers the ability to do very slow and controlled lifts and dismounts, instead of leaps and falls.

Now here are some things that I do not like at all about the twisted grip! From the floor, it feels very awkward and can be painful if I am not very precise about my hand and body positioning. Also, pushing off into a slow lift, I have found, puts a lot of strain on the shoulder of my lower bracket (usually left for me) which can leave that shoulder hurting for a couple days (after all, a body is a lot of weight to put there). Further, if I have to shift around too much to get myself inverted in the twisted grip, I find that there is some discomfort for a day or two following behind my right shoulder blade and on the right side of my neck.

I do feel that most of the problems that I have had using the twisted grip could have been mostly alleviated though, if I had been fully warmed up before attempting to do any twisted grip handspring work. Also, whenever I do strength training, I use the Y.T.I. exercise formula that is posted in Veena’s video. My friend panda (squishypanda9 who just joined the site today) has been doing that exercise and also Veena’s wrist/forearm exercises with me, and I feel much safer when I’m on the pole knowing that I’m using Veena’s advice to strengthen and protect some of my very vulnerable muscles and joints. And I’ve been on enough forced sabbaticals from the pole to realise that I’m just not going to get away with performing demanding pole moves when not adequately warmed up. And if I weren’t as stubborn and sometimes dumb as I can be, I would have learnt the first time.

All that said, I learned all of the other grips before I started trying to work with TG. And I fully agree with Veena that this grip should be done from an invert before attempting the handspring. Even though I use the handspring, I still really enjoy going into the twisted grip from a "princess grip" shoulder mount. Once you get your legs on the pole, you can drop your lower bracket, and voila! You’re in twisted grip and can butterfly, aysha, or whatever. I like doing inverted bodywave in twisted grip, and when I do it makes everyone at work go crazy!

I am not overly fond of the current TG obsession that’s going around right now. It almost looks like its a requirement in order to stay competitive, and I think that’s too bad. There are so many beautiful and challenging moves that can be performed on the pole without having to use twisted grip, and most moves that can be done with this grip can be done with other grips. Handspring "lifts" can be done with true grip although this may take more strength and more training. I presently cannot "lift" into anything with that grip, but it has to be possible because its been done in every Chinese pole performance I’ve ever seen. The straight edge, aysha, and jackknife, can be done with the split, forearm, or elbow grips. I’m sure that if I practiced a little more I could get an inverted bodywave with elbow or forearm grip… and actually after watching this thread, I’m sure I really ought to work on that. I agree with Veena that TG isn’t for everyone, and for myself I have found that I can only use the TG handspring in moderation unless I am just in the mood to do some suffering for a day or two to follow. I have a suspicion that the need for moderation in TG may be a universal one, but each poler knows her/his body better than I!

[StellarMotion]

Empyrean, it’s so funny, this is the second time I’ve realised I was performing a move wrong after reading one of your posts. The first time was when we were talking about the shoulder mount with Carrie, and you described the leg positioning for inverted crucifix as being like an upside-down fireman. That was when I realised I had been executing AND teaching the fireman spin wrong! Hahaha! Now that’s one of my favorite stories to tell about myself, that in spite of all the supposedly "advanced" moves I can perform, I still screw up on the beginner ones! https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_lol.gif So now I see that the death drop is a drop from inverted crucifix, wheras previously I had been trying to do that drop from the Tammy!

Aye-yai, thank the Gods for your background and training. Oh and by the way I have finally begun practicing some moves with the true grip and you seem to be right about it. Fleur gave me some encouragement on this topic too. I’m a bit stronger now than the last time I attempted to use this grip, and I feel like if I keep practicing with this grip I’ll have a Chinese Flagpole ready this year and in a roundabout way I’ll have you to thank for it when it happens.

So anyway, keep posting on this forum; there’s no telling what else I’ll find out I’ve been doing wrong! Hahah https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_lol.gif https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_redface.gif

[StellarMotion]

LOL Tex! Actually I agree with a lot of what you had to say. My tubes locked the first time I set up my X-pole, and I bent the "chopsticks" trying to unlock them. I even slightly bent the release holes in the tube. Even though the C-cup release tools work great, I would have preferred if the X-pole package was effective without additional purchases. I also am not fond of having the height adjuster screw and dome at the top of the pole because I don’t trust the height adjust cover and I would like to be able to do a successful death lay at home. Even though I still like X-pole, I can admit that most of your criticisms of that product make perfect sense to me.

Sorry to hear about your shipping problems with the company too. Thanks for sharing your experience.

Deetron, yes that sounds like it would be a fun thread! I never use the height adjuster cover anymore, I just don’t trust it. I feel like it reduces my total usable pole instead of increasing it, by covering the top inch or two of the pole. But I think that having the adjuster cover at the bottom of the pole sounds like a good idea… unless my fingers are going to get pinched if my hands slide during an inverted hold!

[StellarMotion]

Sabrina, well, I DID have to hit backspace like 83927 times! Haha! And actually I think I may have gone from drunken to buzzed over the course of writing that post. But thank you for reading it, I know it was long. And thanks for expressing your appreciation!

FreeTheSun, thank you, thank you, THANK YOU! I am incredibly interested in what you have shared. I appreciate that you were able to contribute some information that was not at my disposal. Even though I suppose its possible that pole as we know it presently was the idea of a strip-club proprietor, it’s nice to hear alternatives regarding where it may have originated from. Whether our pole’s origin originates in stripping or not would not change my feelings about it, but when information surfaces that encourages us to question information which is innately questionable, it’s always a boon.

Veena, I get so emotional about music and dance too! I didn’t know you were a musician yourself, so it was cool to learn something new about you. I too wish I had been introduced to pole (and musicianship!) at a younger age. And music/dance seems anymore to be among the only things powerful enough to induce tears in my eyes. I hope that dance and pole always stay compatible too.

[StellarMotion]

Hello, friends. (and many of you I really do consider to be friends.) Forgive me if any of this isn’t expressed correctly, as I’m presently somewhat intoxicated. I will not blame any of my sentiments on intoxicants, but merely the expression thereof. But let me make it perfectly clear I offer no apology of any kind for anything previously stated. I do not take offense to having the information I present challenged, as I am not emotionally connected to it. I also do not take offense to having the opinions expressed in my entries challenged, as I acknowledge these are only personal opinions and not universally adopted ideologies.

I want to start by simply reiterating some points I’ve already made. I hate to be redundant, but in this situation I feel that repeating specific ideas that I’ve already shared may be appropriate.

1.) I do not eschew sexuality in our beloved art of pole dancing. I merely feel that it is only one of many, one of countless dimensions that can be expressed through our artform. I wish to be able to express this dimension, but only as an adornment to polework, not as it’s primary or only emphasis; and I wish to develop a multitude of other adornments as well that can run concurrent with it.

2.) Even though I recognise that pole dancing is not stripping, pole dancing is not prostitution, and stripping is not prostitution, I believe that all three of these activities are valid and that their practitioners deserve to be treated with respect, and deserve the opportunity to operate within their respective mediums without judgment, chastisement, or sanction, or the fear of any of these three being visited upon oneself.

3.) I do not believe that pole is inherently disconnected from the erotic, nor does it bear an inherent connection. Any artistic medium can be used to express erotic feelings, or any number of other feelings whether these be connection with sexuality or not. I believe art is a broad field, if that’s not too exaggerated a form of understatement. It’s breadth can absolutely expand to encompass sexuality. But if sexuality becomes a primary focus, art becomes contracted to express only one idea instead of expanded to express the full range of human emotion and experience. No reason is apparent to me that we should not treat this like any other form of dance, or to broaden the concept, any form of art, which can be used to express more than a multitude of different kinds of feelings, experiences, ideas, and attitudes.

4.) The comments I have made have been gender-neutral, not specifically addressed toward women. I am not applying one standard for women that is not being applied toward men, or vice-versa. In fact, I’m not applying any standards whatsoever. What I have done is to share a variety of observations and opinions, which are not specific toward members of one gender or another, or to any other specific group of persons. I have considered myself a feminist since my early teens, or maybe even before that. As such, I think it’s significant to defend women’s rights to be sexual and express sexuality, and that its equally important to defend women’s rights to not be sexual or express sexuality when she doesn’t feel like it.

When I expressed feeling irritated by the dialogue between my friend and I at the Chinese restaurant, I was not feeling irritated because I was free to express sexuality. I was irritated because of the implied obligation to do so, and the limitations that are implied by such an obligation. I would not, in such a scenario, be "free" to express my sexuality at all; but rather, I would be expected to express sexuality. A look of wistfulness would be unacceptable, for only bedroom eyes would suffice. Finding a way to express remorse, anxiety, or jollity would be unacceptable, unless it could somehow be connected to sex. And when I purchased my X-pole, I had no intention of purchasing a shackle that would bind me to sex performance. I intended to buy the option of a new way to perform and further refine my performance of that, among a much broader range of other experiences. Sexuality was only a piece of the picture, and the picture was worlds larger.

If I have somehow expressed that I place a value judgment on individuals who perform sexy dances, it has only been because I have communicated inaccurately. I have placed an aesthetic judgment on overtly sexual performances, and that judgment is this and nothing more: it is not my personal primary aesthetic preference. I can appreciate some of these performances, and I can respect the ones that I don’t appreciate. They simply aren’t my favorite.

My previous posts on this thread have been efforts to condense and combine descriptions of my personal goals related to pole, my ideas about how pole is progressing as an artform and its potential, and my observations about the way pole tends to be treated.

I would further like to reiterate that my previous posts and the language therein on this thread have been and remain gender-neutral, both in black-and-white text and more subtly by implication. Therefore, any experience or interpretation of chauvinism by the reader is purely his or her own projection. If you find it necessary to have someone to blame for this, I offer myself to wear that mantle. But I think that practicing ownership of ones own projected feelings might be a positive alternative to creating an artificial scapegoat. But if you’re not there yet, you’re not there; so deal with your feelings however you are able. Just please try to avoid treating those feelings as though they were mine, if you can. And if somehow you have gotten the feeling from my other entries on this thread that I find sexuality in pole unacceptable, all I can ask is that you reread them, because that feeling is simply inaccurate in contrast with what was actually said.

I don’t personally know the precise origin of pole as a medium upon which to execute a dance performance. And until a definitive history on the subject is published, this information will remain ambiguous. I have a personal suspicion that pole performance and erotic performance existed separately before someone decided it would be "hot" to combine them, but I will confess unabashed that I really have no idea. I was left with the impression that Jenyne Butterfly was working on compiling that information, though I may have my facts skewed about that as well. But I remain unconvinced that erotic performers were the first to use pole. I believe that a dance pole is a piece of metal that extends upward from the floor, usually to the ceiling, but not always. However if its origins do lie in the strip joints, then perhaps we do not really have the right to express offense when our poles are called stripper poles. If strippers gave birth to the art we celebrate today, we owe them homage rather than disclaimers.

With that I will now proceed to respond to comments made by specific individuals.

Polergirl, I know just what you mean. Sometimes when I’m on the dancefloor of any bar or club and I’m genuinely feeling the music, and it combines with the attention of those dancing around me, there is a sexual energy that raises seemingly of its own accord. But I only feel it as it surfaces. I only permit it to express through me. Sometimes a pole is handy when this occurs, other times not, but either way, it’s magnificent. And whether its sexual or not, when energy raises and expresses itself through me, it’s always a wonderful experience. And I like your point of view.

Amcut, even though you weren’t responding specifically to me, I feel that some of your comments deserve being addressed. First let me say that if I had a teenager, I would not be embarrassed if he or she caught me watching one of your videos. I would invite a daughter to watch your video with me and use you as an example of one healthy way to express sexuality. I would invite a son to watch a video of yours and tell him that this is a powerful creature he is watching who was capable of exacting respect from him whether he volunteered it or not. If you felt personally criticised, know that I honour your dancing and your sexuality just the same. Unlike your own videos, I do not think that all sexual performances, whether on or off the pole, are executed in a tasteful way, but as I have stated before this is only a personal preference of an aesthetic nature, which has nothing to do with either sex or pole. Sometimes I get tired of being a "real person" too, and I agree that being a sex kitten is a great way to escape. It’s an escape I use sometimes as well. Before I worked in a night club, I was a patron, and as a patron I would go dance and often remove a garment or two or three. And the positive attention I would receive was an absolute joy that would help motivate me along the rest of my week. Now, as nightclub staff, I still do some dancing and clothing removal. This is to motivate other patrons to come back and continue to spend their money, and also to motivate them to leave a larger number of larger quantity tips for myself and other staff members. In short, I am using sexuality to enhance my quality of life and that of others in a way that you express "got women by" for aeons past. As the world has continued to evolve, it has become more acceptable for men and women to exchange some roles. Women are now allowed to ogle and adore beautiful men, and men are allowed to seek security and comfort in women. Women are allowed to have careers and all kinds of independence, and men are allowed to set their careers aside to be fathers. Women are now allowed to don power suits and tell the boys what to do, and men are allowed to reach the pinnacle of physical beauty in terms of physique and fashion. Whatever biological roles are programmed in our respective chemistries, society seems now to have evolved, or at least to be in the process of evolving to a point where we as individuals can look past our chemical programming and just live however we may feel appropriate for ourselves, and I like this. I love knowing that either you or myself can be a corporate executive, a sex kitten, anywhere in between, or on both extremes of this spectrum. I do not side with those who feel that the world is going to hell in a handbasket. I think it’s the nature of life to evolve, and that we, in our sexual expression and our highest ambitions alike, are merely making ourselves examples of this rule which we have not set, but rather, which life expresses through us seemingly of its own accord. The daily grind always comes back after we grant ourselves from real person-hood, but integration of seemingly opposite qualities is a goal I strive toward and admire when I observe in others. I love knowing that executives can be sexy, and that milfs can be professionals. We don’t have to choose anymore, and that’s beautiful to me. I can admit that sexuality has never come easily to me, but I have been enjoying its slow and progressive unfolding in recent years.

Poledanceromance, I think you brought up a really interesting and majorly cool point when you mentioned that you would be interested in seeing what some 10-15 year olds could come up with if given adequate pole training. I think typically that it is this age group which vanguards most types of athletic work, especially those kinds which are related to pole such as cheerleading, gymnastics, tumbling, and dance, which essentially could be considered a single artform. My friend Linda recounts to me her days of being a gymnastics champion in her teens, who ended up quitting gymnastics one year when she found that many gymnasts several years her junior were performing at a level which she had not been trained to compete with. But this brings up a point of much interest for me, and that is the issue of personal shame in relationship both to pole and sexuality. If we genuinely do not feel shame about either sexual expression or pole, then there would be nothing inappropriate about introducing these (separately) to our children. Perhaps this could be an adequate gauge with regard to each of our own respective moral thermostats. Would I feel ashamed of myself if my child or someone elses child happened to witness me expressing myself through erotic movement, pole dance, or erotic movement on the pole? If so, then maybe I am not as comfortable in my own relationship to pole or to sexuality as I would like to fancy myself being in my fantasies of being a liberated sexual and/or athletic creature. Children only develop sexual shame by virtue of observation, after all. Repression and rebellion are two sides of the same coin, and it is a coin born at home, borne of observation, and observation specifically of our parents and other authority figures. In short, I think I like the way you think.

Fleur, even if it seemed on the surface like our ideas were at odds, I think you and I are actually very much on the same page. I like that pole can be beautiful, sexy, athletic, and acrobatic; and I like that it can be one, a couple, or all of these at the same time, and that a multitude of other adjectives can be attached to specific performances depending on the performer’s interpretation and execution of the movements employed and the music to which the movements are set. I like how you phrased your statement that you only share the "sexual side" of pole dancing with some and not all, because it implies that sexuality is only one side of a multifaceted cluster. But if I did not understand you correctly please feel free to alert me to my inaccuracy. Either way, I love pole as a means of expression, whether its sexuality being expressed or anything else.

Honeyrose, I was interested in what you shared. In your first post on this thread, you stated that "as long as there are men on the planet, women will be judged." And in your follow-up post you cited only examples of women judging you, including your best friend and the instructor at your previous studio. I don’t think this has to be about gender. Alpha male type men will judge men who are artistic, high-maintainence, or who attract rather than pursue. The latter class will criticise the alpha males, claiming that they are merely neanderthals, behind the times and setting us back as a gender. Reserved and conservative women will criticise women who are sexually autonomous, calling them loose or rebellious, while the latter class will dismiss the former as repressed, weak, or boring. Women’s criticisms of men will typically encompass both of men’s criticisms of one-another, and men’s criticisms of women will encompass both of women’s criticisms of one-another. Sadly, whatever we don’t like in ourselves we project, and what we don’t like in our environments we find someone to blame for. I actually enjoy the sentiment you expressed in both of your posts, I just don’t think it has to be about gender.

Verucablue, hello to you! I don’t know if I’m in a minority who has a certain kind of preference in regard to how I’m approached, whether on an individual basis or by a performer. So I’m willing to acknowledge that my "leading with the butt" comment may have been out-of-turn, or based solely on an individual preference. But let’s hypothetically say for example I had a bottle of wine and a nice conversation with a perfectly adorable guy and then invited him over. If he busted out some of the "sexy" moves that I have seen marketed as "fitness" previously, I would not be aroused; in fact the result would be quite the opposite I’m sure. Again, that’s just aesthetic and entirely personal. I’m sure that the orifice-first approach excites a lot of people. I can say for certain though that I never expressed that pole dancing in a strip club should not be erotic. I do believe its possible for pole dancing to be a family event, but if I went into a strip club I would know what to expect. And if I didn’t like what I saw I would fully own my own responsibility for choosing to go there. Maybe I should have been specific that I was not refering to pole dancing in strip clubs, but rather, in most other venues. I don’t feel that I am "ignoring" anything, only acknowledging that pole dancing has ambiguous origins. No, there’s nothing wrong with heterosexual women cheering for the sexy movement of other heterosexual women. I just find it very unusual, but I’m sure there’s a perfectly reasonable sociological explanation for it that I just haven’t come across yet. I have some theories, but I doubt their usefulness in this discussion. To answer your question, I think there is nothing "wrong" with encouraging others to be sexy. I respect that pole can expose many men and women to the floorwork which will create an expression for their latent, but potentially powerful sexuality. So after the cage is opened, do we continue to "liberate" the latent inner beast on a constant basis? If so, successful sexual liberation has only been achieved to a small degree. Because if pole floorwork is the only medium through which it can be expressed, and it has to be expressed through pole floorwork every time the pole is employed, it is intuitive that the individual in question has gotten stuck in the early stages of this sexual liberation and has not found ways to integrate it into his or her regular personality and daily life. I did not assume everyone started poling for sport or art. But I do think it is possible for all of us, regardless of which medium we have adopted to express ourselves through, to integrate all facets of that medium into our expression through it, and then integrate that expression into daily living. But perhaps I’m a fool to take a shamanistic attitude toward pole. And maybe we will never know either way.

Mindy, I will confess that as I am neither female nor heterosexual, I have no direct personal experience of what it is like to possess the sexuality of either heterosexuals or females. So you might be correct, I may just not get it. What I can tell you is that I have a keen monitor that can tell me whether a woman or man is sexy or not at specific points in time. When I comment on videos here or on YouTube, I usually make it a point to let the poster know when her movement is sexy; and when I do make a point of that it is meant as a compliment and nothing more. But the actual "turn-on" factor is a different matter. I have great respect for sexy in many forms. But my turn-ons can tend to be specific as can my turn-offs. And maybe for women it’s totally different, I honestly just don’t know. That is my concession. I concede that I do not know whether I understand or not. I would like to imagine that male sexuality is more complicated than many females and the pop-psychological establishment would like to believe, but truthfully I don’t know that either. I do know that I don’t intend to act on my feelings every time I am sexually excited, and I do trust that the vast majority of male and female exotic dancers do not act on their sexual feelings (assuming these feelings are not feigned). I trust that patrons at exotic dance establishments are buying the fantasy of an experience, as opposed to the experience itself. I suspect that a prostitute that always acted on his or her aesthetic preferences would rarely if ever earn any money, because more than nine out of ten clients would be turned away. So I really do get it when you’re talking about having the feeling of being sexy being possibly carrying more weight than the experience of having sex. I do not feel that a dancer should refrain from expressing sexual feelings and if I have implied that I feel that way in earlier posts, then I either miscommunicated, or have been misinterpreted, or perhaps some combination of these. But I like diversity. We can have sex and candy, sex and coffee, sex and wine, sex and dinner, sex and cigarettes, or sex and anything else. But to me, diversity is not present unless sex is only making a cameo. If you hear that David C. Owen will be giving a performance and you feel confident that its going to be sexy, even though perhaps I should feel flattered by that assumption, I am more likely to feel flat, one-dimensional, and predictable. I believe that sexuality emerges spontaneously, and that when it does, it is beautiful. But I also feel that if it emerges constantly, it is no longer spontaneous, but a routine, common, and ordinary thing. But then again, I guess that even the ordinary can be beautiful depending on the perspective an individual carries. Let me express here that II can see how my "giggle" comment may have been inappropriate and if there were any part of any of my writings on this thread that I were going to take back, it would be that one. I really don’t want to be a person that laughs at others, and by making that comment I publicly revealed one of my shortcomings. By the way, I began to reply to your last e-mail and got stuck. I’ll probably send an e-mail along to you with my birth data very soon, but will continue your interpretation when the inspiration comes. I’m having a personal dry spell at this point in time both sexually and astrologically. Maybe that is reflected in some of the perspectives that I have shared.

Hi, Scarletthoney. I think it is ambiguous whether the origins of performance on a pole can be found in strip joints or not, but let us assume that it was for a moment. Could this piece of vertical metal not be used for other purposes just because of its origin? Obviously it has been and continues to be used for purposes of erotic entertainment, and I think there is nothing whatsoever wrong with that. But it is equally obvious that not all strippers are pole dancers, and that not all pole dancers are strippers. Items and ideas are used in ways that defy their respective origins all the time. Could that not be true of pole as well? I am not attacking stripping, sex, or sexuality; I am just challenging the idea that these and pole are innately synonymous.

And Runemist! I just want to express that it’s been really cool to watch your responses through this thread. You’ve had feelings you’ve expressed clearly and kindly, and haven’t reacted angrily or defensively to anyone’s comments. I think that is a mark of great confidence and personal fortitude. Your neutrality is refreshing, and much appreciated by the guy with the unpopular opinions. https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_flower.gif

[StellarMotion]

I’m curious, Tex, what has caused your opinion of X-pole to become so low?

I was considering buying a Platinum Stages pole as my first one last Fall, but every time I tried to connect to the website it would stall and would refuse to load the page I was trying to open. This happened multiple times over the course of several weeks – in my opinion, far too frequently to be coincidence. I decided that either the company handles the site in an unprofessional way, or that the Universe was trying to prevent me from wasting money. Either way I gave up on further researching PS poles and went with the X-pole (50mm chrome). I had heard that Mynx poles were good, but since I don’t own my apartment I couldn’t put holes anywhere to install it.

I have absolutely no complaints whatsoever with regard to X-pole! It is much, much more difficult to use than the brass pole at the bar that I initially learned about pole on, but I probably need the extra difficulty in order to be prepared to use poles at other venues. I also really like that I can take Francine (my X-pole) down, carry her out and set her up at any location that has a flat surface to mount the dome on. That theoretically enables me to possibly perform or instruct in locations that don’t normally have poles in them!

Oh, and Deetron, a video might be really difficult, but I think if nothing else it would make a very entertaining photograph! I’ll try to get someone to take the picture, and I’ll post it on my profile. May be a while though.

[StellarMotion]

Hi! I’m not sure whether it was my statements found objectionable or someone else’s, but I did want to clarify a little bit. I hope that when I mentioned shoes earlier, you didn’t hear me say "Kim and Barbara are superior pole dancers because they are not 6-inch platform-wearing whores." That is not even close to what I meant to imply. I do, however, appreciate that they did something different than the majority of their contemporaries when in performance. I like when people aren’t the same as everyone else. I don’t hate shoes, I just don’t think they should have to be standard or expected as they really seem to be. But having said that, I don’t wear shoes that have a heel; I’m sure that if there is ever a recognised venue for male pole dance performance or competition, I’ll be exempted from the platform heel standard.

Regardless, I have a slightly non-conformist type of personality so I notice and respect when someone defies a standard. I wasn’t at world last year, but as far as I can tell Amy Impey was the only competitor who wasn’t in shoes. I noticed and appreciated it because it was different from the standard, not because I thought it made her less stripper-like. Remember, I have respect for strippers. But speaking just for myself as a non-conformist, the more sexually I see others behave, or the more sexuality is expected of me, the more frigid I’m likely to become. There is an energetic and radical rebel in me that just wants to do the opposite of what is standard.

But the pole dancers I respect the most are the ones who can pull off a very wide variety of feelings through a performance, instead of just sexual ones. And I do think there are standards of tastefulness to consider as well. There are very popular pole dancers who perform very strong, super-advanced moves with extraordinary precision, but the bits of themselves that they put on display with some of their dance moves still leaves me wishing they would just stop. This can be true of male performers too. There’s a guy on YouTube that has a lot of really good pole moves, but his dancing, to me, is in rather bad taste. But this fellow is honest and honorable to state openly that his performance is "stripper style." Sexuality doesn’t have to mean giving it all away. If you were to look at some really old movies, you probably wouldn’t find a lot of overt sex scenes. But you might see a couple going to a different room and closing the door, and you know what they’re doing. I don’t consider myself old-fashioned at all, but as creative people involved in a creative performing medium I think we should be willing to develop enough artistic skill to generate some kind of feeling in the observer, whether that is a sexual feeling or some other kind, without putting it in black and white. And by confining our performances to being a form of erotic expression, we are only limiting ourselves as artists and denying ourselves of some of the healing and cathartic power that all of the arts have when we give them a chance to work their magic on and through us.

I don’t have a problem with sexual dancing. I dance sexually sometimes. But I have a problem with it being expected. And I don’t, per se, have a problem with it being so constant in pole, but I think its consistency fuels the ongoing expectation. And the expectation imbues in budding pole dancers a belief that sexual movement is part of the industry standard. Thus a kind of vicious cycle is formed, the result of which is that we continue to have to "justify" pole dancing as not being stripping. Unfortunately, that "justification" ends up resulting in an inadvertent expression of disrespect for strippers and exotic dancers, the more adamant about explaining the difference any of us become.

With that said, there is a kind of honor code among exotic dancers, even in the all nude clubs. The dancers who touch their private bits or let the patrons touch them anywhere are not respected by the other dancers at that club. It is generally assumed that the dancers who do are doubling as prostitutes. Mind you, I personally don’t think that prostitution is objectionable either, and I believe that prostitutes deserve respect too. I’d just keep it out of the club though, because it changes the environment and the expectations of the patrons on the other dancers who are not taking side-jobs.

Last, I have to wonder sometimes, who are we trying to turn on? Most of the "whoos" you hear when a pole performer starts doing sexy floor dancing are straight females cheering for straight females. I believe that the most common type of pole dance enthusiast is the suburban housewife. And from what I can tell, most formal pole dance performances and competitions are primarily attended by other straight female pole dancers. Does it really serve anyone to go before an audience of unsuited and probably unavailable persons and act like we want to excite them sexually? And are we, as an audience, really doing this art and its highest calibre vanguards any service by encouraging them to use the same sexual dance style they use all the time? It’s nice to encourage our friends, of course. But maybe we could encourage them to do something cool instead. Perhaps we can encourage them to break out of their comfort zones, which primarily contain average, common strip-club moves and facial expressions to match. Leading with the butt, in my opinion, is not the most endearing way to engage an audience, but that’s just my feeling. I’m sure there are some audience members who would enjoy being approached butt-first by the performers. But still. Heterosexual women being sexy for each other and pretending to be excited about it makes me giggle a little.

I don’t think its wrong to use pole dancing as one of the mediums to act out some of our own sexual fantasies, or to act out fantasies of our sexual identities and who we might aspire to become. Any artistic or performing medium can be used for this purpose. But I think it is helpful to be aware of ourselves doing so while its happening.

Damn, PoleGrrrrl! How did you get to Sydney? I thought you were around UK somewhere. I wish I could take classes at Bobbi’s too, as long as I wouldn’t have to wear pleasers with the rest of you! What a funny irony, though, that you were winning competitions before you studied there. Most people go to Bobbi’s studio and then become champions after. I can’t wait to see your next recording after you’ve been training at Bobbi’s. Share everything you learn! I’m really happy for you!

[StellarMotion]

I’m so glad to hear that it was a great jam. I wished I could have been there, but at the very least I had a pretty successful weekend at work. Maybe we can plan another one in a few months and I’ll have better luck getting there. Can’t wait to see what any of you got as far as vids or photos go.

[StellarMotion]

Thanks for starting this discussion thread. I’ve been interested in what you all have had to say so far. I want to start sharing my opinion on this subject by reviewing a dialogue had with a friend while dining together at our favorite Chinese restaurant.

Refering to the song playing on the radio, "Wasted" performed by Carrie Underwood, I made the statement, "I think I really want to dance to this song."

"THIS song?" Nikki replied, confused.

"Yes, why not?"

Still trying to understand, Nikki asked, "So do you just really like Country music a lot, or what?"

"No, not generally, but this particular song moves me for some reason. I think it would interpret well in a dance."

"But you can’t dance to this!"

"Why not?"

And then it came out. Nikki replied, "because it isn’t sexy!"

So then I went there. "Why should that matter? Why should I have to be sexy?"

"Well…. because you’re on a pole!"

I will admit to being irritated by that dialogue. Personally, I don’t find it terribly distasteful to be thought capable of erotic movement, but because Nikki is my friend I have wanted her to be able to understand that pole dancing for me is a type of acrobatic performance, rather than erotic entertainment. The attitude I have toward pole dancing would place poles in circuses rather than in sexual types of environments. I personally do have respect for exotic dancers. I consider them artists of a sort. Its easy to have charisma when you feel wanted by droves of attractive and charming people. To remain charismatic while marketing oneself to drunken, lonely, chauvenistic and potentially obnoxious individuals takes a high degree of skill and self-control. Mind you, I’m sure there are some clubs where a higher callibre of individual is in attendance; but in general, I think the likelihood of going into a gentleman’s club and finding an actual "gentleman" are probably not particularly high. But I digress.

I aspire toward a pinnacle of physical virtuosity. This is not so I can be beautiful, it’s so that I can be efficient in athletic and acrobatic types of performances. Should I, at some point, choose to consciously integrate sexuality into my work on the pole, or any other performance medium, the sexuality is merely a decoration. For me, sex and pole are about as connected as pine trees are with blown glass bulbs. People put bulbs on trees, but there is no innate connection between them. I think connecting poles with sexuality makes about as much sense as connecting sexuality with radiators, tennis balls, or lemons. In one of Amcut’s video’s I saw her use part of her wall/countertop in a way that looked pretty damned hot. But speaking just for myself, it doesn’t seem that it would be logical to consider all walls to possess erotic qualities just because someone looked fantastic when using it as part of some sensual movement.

Any medium can be used for purposes of erotica, whether in private or in performance. Chairs are sometimes used in exotic dance, but how many of us have been asked if we are strippers just because we’ve been seated in a chair? Food can be used in a way that is sexy. Music can be used to entertain in an erotic way, as easily as it can be used for other kinds of entertainment.

On the converse side of this, really any activity could be considered sexually exciting by someone, and it doesn’t have to be an erotic performance done scantily clad. High school, college, and professional athletes can tend to be labeled "players" in their personal lives as the result of their sexual prowess. I’m sure we all remember some of these personalities from our own time in school, our team positions, or by looking at tabloids and gossip television programmes. But even though sports such as football do not contain an inherently erotic element in them, there appears to be something about competitive sports that generates a charisma that many women and perhaps some men seem to find very sexually exciting. The same can be said of musical performances. Many singers, guitarists, and other musicians are highly coveted sexually, even though their musical stylings, attire, and movements may not be overtly sexual in performance. Why is this? My theory is that there is a particular kind of glory projected on performers and athletes of different kinds, and there is something in us that understands that by engaging the recipient of that projection in a sexual way, we are somehow increasing our own sense of self and collective value and partaking in a piece of that other person’s glory ourselves. This glory can be carried equally well by a political leader, a medical pioneer, a goalie on a hockey team, a celebrity chef, an animal rescuer, or a pole dancer. We all want to partake of the power, strength, grace, mercy, money, beauty, charm, genius, expressiveness, and creativity of others; and at least to a limited degree, sex and sexuality enable us to do that. But when we do, I think it is important to remember that it is often we who are projecting the sexuality on something we value in that other person, rather than experiencing a sexual feeling directly which would be based on physical, emotional, or intellectual attraction and chemistry.

The last time I did a public pole dance performance, I selected music that could be considered somewhat macabre, and tried to choreograph in a way that communicated a similar feeling. I was furious at the DJ who did not prepare the music as I had paid him weeks in advance to do, because I had to improvise a performance to a song I had never heard before. Even though the performance was successful, I was livid, mainly because I didn’t get to express myself how I desired to. I feel that as a pole dancer, if I would like to express erotic feelings through my music, I absolutely have the right to do that. Likewise, I feel quite entitled to express melancholy, anger, jollity, childishness, despair, remorse, reverie, respect, or whatever other feeling I would like to express. My hope as a pole dance performer is that whatever audience I end up in front of will recognise and appreciate the emotion I’m trying to express by movement and song selection, rather than doing one of the following: either experiencing that performance as having to do something with sexuality, or criticising the performance because it wasn’t sexy enough.

This, like so many other issues, just comes down to preference. When I competed in a talent show in November, I pole danced and I felt like I very successfully pulled off some erotic movement. This was so that I could garner the audience response that I would need in order to win. But when I gave my follow-up performance to collect the rest of my prize money the next time that show was held, I selected a song that I didn’t feel sexual about and choreographed in a way that I didn’t feel was sexual, because I wasn’t "competing" and didn’t have to impress anyone. If I have to use sex to sell my pole dancing, I’m willing to do that. But if I can avoid it, I would prefer to.

I appreciate pole dancers like Kym, who wears sneakers in her pole performances, and Barbara that won Pole Superstar, who did that performance barefooted. I love the videos taken from Jenyne’s master classes on her UK tour, and did not feel remotely deprived that she didn’t wear high heel shoes for those performances; and in fact I thought it made her lines look straighter and cleaner. I find heels distracting and liable to subtract something from the performance. The hypocrisy which can be found in pole dancing never ceases to amaze me. We demand first to be recognised as athletes and fitness enthusiasts instead of strippers, and then in performance we adhere rigidly to traditional strip-club style dancing, performing many of the exact same dance moves that can be seen on any day in any strip club. I am okay with being thought of as a stripper firstly because I respect strippers and secondly because even if I did have a problem with being thought of that way I know that isn’t what I’m doing. I suspect that many people who are successful pole dancers have fantasies or fetishes of being a stripper. But its hard for me to respect someone demanding to be recognised as an athlete who orgasmically wiggles around on the floor in string and heels. But then I must admittedly make some note of hypocrisy in my own statement here, because if I’m trying to help to divorce poles from strippers in the minds of the people I interact with, it is unfair of me to say that specific kinds of attire and dance moves are typical of strippers just because strip clubs are the specific location where those dance moves are usually performed and that attire is worn. I suspect it’s possible that what we’re really doing is bringing the strip club out of the gutter and into daylight, and lending some legitimacy to what it offers.

Having said all of that, I want to express that I am equally skeptical of the "pole fitness" fad. I personally do not use pole dancing as a way to keep myself fit, even though I recognise that it is one of the results. I am definitely not on the pole fitness bandwagon, though. I pole dance as a means of aerial performance. I keep fit in order to be more effective as a pole dancer, rather than pole dancing for fitness. To me, it seems as though the pole fitness crowd has polarised itself against the erotic pole performance crowd. I fall into neither category, as far as I can tell. But I am convinced that the more adamant one is about pole dancing for fitness, the greater the anxiety is present with regard to ones own sexuality. Quite often the pole fitness nazis are among the seediest movers on the floor, as far as I have observed. The remainder seem to be unattached to any particular philosophy about pole, but merely express their love for this art through sharing their dances. Of course one has to acknowledge that one develops a stronger and healthier body as the result of being on the pole, but I find it hard to believe that this is the primary motivation for most pole enthusiasts.

Last, but quite related, I’m slightly disturbed by some recent comments on one of my videos on YouTube. I do find it ironic that I received two comments in less than a week inquiring if I was gay because I posted a pole dance video, which I didn’t think was sexual at all, homo or otherwise. Its funny how people want to tack sexuality onto everything. When I started wearing occasional black eyeliner and got my ears pierced, I felt like I had to defend against the same line of questions with the same types of answers.

http://www.youtube.com/comment_servlet?all_comments&v=jZ8Whz5wLSo

In this dialogue, I felt as though it was necessary to defend pole dancing from being called "gay" rather than being called stripping. After all this time, we are still a pretty misunderstood lot. What else can we do besides pray for these poor people?

I know that was really long-winded. I had no idea all that was about to come out! Do forgive me for writing another novel!

I have to confess, though… if I were a little less afraid of being perceived as sexual when I do a performance or a recording, I have to imagine my routines would be more danceworthy and flowy, and a bit less trick-after-trick-after-trick. I have always been apt to admit that (pole-related) dancing is not my strong suit; I find the acrobatics a lot easier and this may be part of the reason.

[StellarMotion]

And congratulations, its a very good routine. You demonstrate the strength I aspire toward. Thank you for sharing that with us!

[StellarMotion]

Here I am, Veena! And hello to you, ManCandy. I’m David, another male pole dancer! I am actually in the very same boat as yourself, quite desperate for opportunities to perform and finding very, very few. Here in the United States there aren’t any competitions that males are welcome to perform in; the USPDF is a little bit behind the times. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a Canadian competition though.

Your execution of the Genie is impressive. I find that when performing that move, I feel like my abs aren’t going to hold me, so I instinctively clasp my hands behind my back to take some weight off of the oblique! You don’t seem to have that problem at all. Good on you!

If you have access to any video recordings of yourself, I’m sure most of us would enjoy seeing them. Do you have a YouTube? I have the same screen name there.

You should enjoy it here. It’s a great place to play, share, learn, and receive advice from excellent pole dancers. So far, I have not experienced any negativity here, and all the gals seem very receptive and welcoming to male participants.

[StellarMotion]

Lily, I thought the way you did that was so pretty. I am going to try to do it that way when I have my next spinny practice.

[StellarMotion]

SimpllySweet is incredible at performing RGs on spin mode, even aerial. I haven’t succeeded at doing much good with this, but check out some of her videos. There’s a couple of aerial RGs at the beginning of this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9nxB4TRTHE&feature=sub

And then here’s another dealing primarily with aerial RGs on spin mode: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ-SGLXWwUA

I think it’s just amazing how she can do that. I wanna be like her!

[StellarMotion]

Thanks for wanting me to be there, Tiff and everyone, but I’m not gonna be able to pull it off. I’m going to be at work every Friday and Saturday night for a while, and am not quite situated to take any time off yet. https://www.studioveena.com/img/smilies/icon_e_sad.gif

[StellarMotion]

HI! I think this article could help an unfamiliar person to get a more accurate perspective of what it means to be a pole dancer. You’re very precise and detailed in your writing, but still entertaining.